Michelle, what you did was wonderful.

My sister asked me the same thing just the other day! I was stunned, as though my kids will be at a disadvantage for being raised vegan. *eye roll*

Thanks, and you're right! Mosquitos are tough. I am very fortunate that I rarely get bitten and can usually brush them away if they land on me.

I don't have to use bug repellant at all.

For those that do, there is a really great soap called Bug Off (made by Cedar Creek) that works great. It is a green, organic, all natural company. It is environmentally safe and good for children as well. You use the soap to wash with before hiking or camping out and it keeps the mosquitos off. You can find them on-line.

http://www.cedarcreekproducts.com/Index.html

I agree that there is horror that goes on in many slaughterhouses, I have seen it. But on the other hand, I believe in Happy meat. My family and I raise and process our own meat for our own use because we can't justify the abuse that occurs in mass production farms.  We love, adore and spoil our animals and when their time comes, we know that they had good lives and were treated humanely. 

Seneca, I have a friend who is horrified at the idea of killing horses but raises goats to sell for slaughter and breeds his cows in order to raise his own meet. He and his wife name the mother cows and will never slaughter them, but don't name the baby steers because they will eventually be killing them.

I see how you and he justify your "happy meat" position: your cattle and his cattle have had a great life. But I don't see how you and he can be so callous as to take the life of your friends, when they would never do that to you, when you don't "need" their flesh, and when it is only cultural tradition that makes you think there's nothing wrong with doing so.

If you hadn't been raised in a society that has for generations killed animals for food, you would not think that it was normal or decent, but would, I believe, see it as cruel, irrational, and a betrayal of your innocent friends.

   The difference, I believe, is that  I don't view myself as an equal to animals. God, in His infinite wisdom, declared on the 6th Day of creation that we should ..."rule over the fish of the sea & the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." Genesis 1:26

   Please don't misunderstand my intentions. I don't, in any way, seek to condem or manipulate ones own opinions or choices. I only wish to defend one sided thinking...  I think that quite often people only see what is desired to be seen, which is not always the whole picture.  I've done research, seen the horrific videos of slaughterhouses and animal torture, they make me sick and full of heartache! I also want them stopped! What that does change for me is that I can do better. I care about what goes into my body and my families as well so we change what we can.  That is why we raise our own meat, a steer & a pig. We also raise chickens free range for eggs and have goats for milk.  There is no horror story here, just a Back to Basics Farm where we raise our children honorably with free thinking and simplicity. We want for nothing and have an abundance of love to go around.

Hi again Seneca,

When a human defends every animal's right to live for that animal's own purposes, that is not "one-sided" thinking. It is well-rounded thinking.

When a human cares more about what goes into her body than whether she is needlessly killing a "who" (not a "what"), THAT is one-sided thinking.

When a parent raises a child with honor, with simplicity and with free thinking, that would mean that the child has the right to decide whether to kill her animal friends for her own "benefit." Is that what your children have done for as long as they have been able to think for themselves: chosen to kill and eat their friends? I doubt it, unless they were following your parental example, your precepts, your behest.

And as for your concept of dominion, from Genesis 1, I would kindly refer you to two often-overlooked verses (29 and 30) in the same chapter. I never noticed them until a few short years ago. There, our good Creator makes it clear that the ultimate in His harmonious, "very good" creation, or kingdom, is NO violence. That all of us, humans and animals, can subsist and in fact will thrive ONLY on the fruit of the earth.

By any sane person's definition, killing another sentient being is violence. Cultural differences aside, if killing a cat is violent, then killing a cow must be equally a form of violence.

In other words, NO violence, NO killing, only peaceful coexistence, is the spiritual and moral and ethical norm for ALL of this Creator's offspring, bar none. And I have to believe we'll attain that harmony and unity ONLY when we individually quit rationalizing our "use" of animals for our supposed gain.

We're not doing ourselves any favors by teaching our children that animals are inferior. We're only sacrificing innocence (ours, theirs, and the animals) at the altar of self-justification, greed, and ignorance.

I didn't used to understand these ideas. I was ignorant. I'm still outgrowing ignorance, as I let in more of the light of Love, of Life, of Truth. I've been told by long-time friends that I'm a MUCH kinder person to humans now that I've embraced ALL animals as my equals, my friends.

Animals may not have the comprehension, the comprehensiveness, the complexity, that humans have been given. (Are we using that comprehension to benefit all creation, or perverting it for our own self-serving purposes?)

But animals sure possess (even if it hasn't come to full bloom in each one of them yet) the same degree of love, loyalty, courage, fairness, respect, forgiveness, compassion, generosity, and integrity with which humans are endowed. 

I'm not attempting to change your mind, Seneca, but I am defending what I've come to see as a higher way of looking at all life. Higher because more meek and merciful. More childlike. More Christlike. More real.

I know what you mean... When I drive past cows now, I tell them (sometimes out loud, sometimes silently) that many people, including I, are doing everything we can to make their lives better, and to one day free them from human-inflicted suffering and untimely death.

If you are driving past the cows Gary you are using beef by products to do so.  Brake fluid, asphalt, steel ball bearings, car upholstery, plastic molds, and lots of other things come from cows.

You can not use a car, truck, airplane, or bus without using cattle parts!  You are helping keep meat prices low by providing extra markets for the slaughterhouses.

Cows aren't killed so that automobile parts can be derived from them--they're killed for food and fashion. Striking at the root by not supporting those two industries is what will help the problem; all the other derivatives will be eliminated when the prices make animal-based materials competitive with non-animal products.

Anything you purchase from the chain supports the entire chain is my point.  This is true if it is half a percent of the chain or 50%.  Of course, meat and milk is what drives the cattle industry.  If we remove beef and dairy the rest of the chain from fashion to medicines would become price restrictive for most Americans.  Unfortunately, most people do not how many animal products they use every day - that was my point of the previous post.

You raised a lot of interesting points, but the issue at stake is simple: eating animal products results in unnecessary suffering and we can each choose not to support that suffering.

Kyle, no it does not. The abolition of horse slaughter has added greatly to the suffering. Starvation, abandonment, shipping greater distances to unregulated slaughter. There are many necessary "evils" in this world. The reason for most of the suffering is because there are too many people and because of the economics of scale. Both contribute to factory farming, and vegans be aware of the scorched earth policies in California to "protect" the "organic" integrity of your factory farmed bagged salads. 

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/111523

The answer to most of the problems is to go local. Local is smaller, more personal, kinder to the animals and the plants and the environment.

If you want to see vicious, watch a flock of chickens for awhile.

As for the bellowing of mamas and babies being separated, prey animals have very short memories. They are designed that way, so that when their young is eaten by a predator in the wild, the female will forget quickly and be ready to breed again promptly.

In some parts, species are being saved by finding ways for humans to exploit them, that makes them useful and so propogates the species. We humans are basically vicious animals too.

The only relevant criteria for the animals in question is that they have a capacity to feel pain and experience subjective suffering. As such, if we feel that we should consider the interests of humans because they suffer, we should also consider the interests of the animals with that characteristic, to avoid contradicting our own moral code.

Unless there are absolutely no alternatives, I wouldn't slit someone's throat, human or animal, and I don't want to pay someone else to do something that I wouldn't do myself. Does that seem reasonable to you?

Diane, In some ways I agree with you, in others, I disagree.

When you live closely with animals and observe them with a discerning and sensitive eye, you will be aghast at their capacity to feel and indicate cognitive abilities.

We humans, cruel and often blind monkeys that we are, choose to ignore much of this for our convenience. Although we humans are a savvy and crafty species, we are also very ignorant.

Ignorant to the excruciating suffering we impose upon animals.

When animals are killed in the wild, more likely than not they are strangled or suffocated. Their deaths are "relatively" quick, and they often go into shock.

With strangulation, they are likely to experience the "white light" which I can tell you I have personally experienced.

No matter brain chemicals or not, Nature has it's own more "lenient" method of dispatch.

But yes, Nature allows for unmitigated suffering.

As for species being saved for the sake of exploitation, I find that interminably sad. It speaks of a bitterness and twist that goes against the most basic principals all animals subscribe to - the love of freedom, the love to mate, to rear young, to experience freedom to roam and run, swim and fly.

I TOTALLY agree with you that elimination of horse slaughter has CREATED A MUCH GREATER EVIL.

The transportaion of horses to Mexico or Canada, with no food, no water, terror, darkness, cruel viciousness when they arrive half mad with thirst, is UNSPEAKABLE.

YES. We should go local. I joined Localvore although who has time these days... so many things to garner our attention.

Prey animals suffer acutely and long term.

In this thing we call life, all living creatures are precious.

But, we can choose the dark side, to delight in the suffering of others, to ignore the pain we cause.

It's our choice.

Cdin,

I live closely with animals and have done so for the last 20 years on a 24/7 basis. Only recently has that association turned to food animals. Food animals, in a perfect world, i.e. in nonfactory farm situations, trade comfort and security for freedom and uncertainty. Much like we Americans are doing at the moment.

Animals are capable of suffering, but they are not capable of the range on emotions that humans are. They are not moral, especially chickens, they do not feel regret, they are sublime opportunists, and they have a great capacity to accept the moment as it is. They do feel stress, and like us, long term stress will wear on them, but they do not feel angst. They have expectations, but no true understanding of future.

You say: But, we can choose the dark side, to delight in the suffering of others, to ignore the pain we cause.

I do not delight in the suffering of others, never have never will. I feel sorry for the PEOPLE who work in slaughterhouses and are surrounded continuously with killing. I cannot imagine the toll it takes on them. The animals' stress and anxiety are short. Slaughter is not torture. Slaughter is killing for food. Very few critters, human or otherwise, get to die peacefully of old age. It is a fact. Death is not easy, NO MATTER how it is achieved, but it is inevitable.

You say: Prey animals suffer acutely and long term.

 Wrong. Factory farming is the enemy, not farming. And prey animals in the wild suffer daily stress and discomfort. Well kept farm animals have it cushy by comparison. Badly kept farm animals are just that, badly kept.

You say: It's our choice.

Domesticated animals decided long ago to associate with humans because of the benefits they, the animals achieved. Comfort, food and security, and through that increase of the species. Believe me, if the animals don't want to be associated with humans, they would not be. That is why there are so few, truly domestic, animals. I work long hard days, EVERY DAY, in all weathers, whether I want to or not, whether I am well or sick, to care for the animals on my farm. And believe me, if they didn't want to be here, they would leave, especially the chickens and turkeys that are completely free ranging, and subject to predation by the local hawks. The horses and cows can easily take down the fencing, the pigs could jump the fence. They choose not to, and if they do get out, they come home to the barn, where it is safe and secure and there is plenty of food.

Kyle,

I understand that you don't want to kill. But you do not have to. You can go to the grocery store and buy food. That has not always been the case, and in my view, shortly, will no longer be the case. You will have to discover for yourself how deep your convictions go when you are faced with going hungry or killing to eat.

Perhaps you misunderstood--I said that I don't want to pay someone to do something that I wouldn't do, and "[going] to the grocery store and [buying] food" is doing just that.

It really is a simple choice. Humans don't need animals for nutrition or gustatory pleasure. That animals can suffer is a biological fact; since its unnecessary for the vast majority of people, the only moral choice is to avoid inflicting that suffering.

Kyle,

Do you grow all of your own food?