I'm afraid I don't understand your "nor will I ever be one" reaction to this, Susan. There's no way to "stop the cruelty" and still have the kind of egg production people want. The existence of male chicks is an unavoidable fact, which is why all hatcheries for egg production kill them, and unless everyone who wants to continue purchasing eggs also wants to take countless roosters into their homes for life, these male chicks are still going to be killed for the egg industry, indefinitely and by the millions, as are and will be all the hens a few years later when their egg production declines.

The solution isn't to wag our fingers at the hatcheries and egg farms, which are only doing these things at consumers' demand; the solution is to stop buying the eggs. As long as people want eggs, this is what's going to happen for those eggs. It's economics.

I have to agree with Stephanie, Susan. The only way to remove yourself from atrocities like these is to hop off the animal-product train and go vegan. Even so-called free-range eggs involve cruelty. As long as people view animals as existing for our use and pleasure, these things will continue to happen.

Stephanie & Shannon are right, the only way it will ever stop is if the world stops eating eggs. There is no other way for it to stop!

And the other thing is, they don't 'live', that's the problem! They don't have a 'life'! Apart from the chicks that get ground up, the laying hens, once 'of No use' get 'thrown'(not nicely) and squished into crates so bad that they can't move, loaded onto lorries/trucks and shipped over night, some not even making it to thier grusome death at the other end because they have been suffocated or squashed and pecked to death by the other hens who were lucky enough to be on the top of the squishy pile! And this is only the tip of the iceberg as far as animal/dairy consumption goes, people don't want to know about any of it so they stick their heads in the sand, you have seen it now, now you can make a difference.

How will your local chicken farmer treat the unwated male chicks any differently from the mass producers i wonder?

Purchasing from small local producers doesn't stop the reality that animals are being used (and discarded) as products. In order to turn a profit, your small producers will have to kill the male chicks, too, because they cannot economically support them. It sounds like you're using this message board as a sounding board for your marketing, because you didn't address the issue of putting an end to the cruelty involved in chicken farming.

The vast majority of hens on even truly "free-range" farms and even in people's backyards come from hatcheries where male chicks are killed too. Just "purchasing from small local producers" does nothing at all to stop the grinding alive, suffocation, or other ways of killing male chicks. "How they treat their livestock" says nothing about how the "livestock" got to the farm in the first place (or how terrible and unnecessary ultimate slaughter is either--but that's another topic).

But they are still killing off the male chicks are they not?

Please see the earlier response to you on this topic, Joe. If we're going to talk about unfounded claims, let's really talk about unfounded claims. You are implying to people that *all* they have to do is get their eggs from "local" and "free-range" producers to not be involved in these kinds of cruelties, and that's simply not true. It is my understanding that the majority of "local" and "free-range" operations get their hens from hatcheries too, the same hatcheries that kill the male chicks and debeak the female ones and put them all through great trauma.

"Non-meat foods" as you call them--in other words, plants, the food we know people should be eating far more of even beyond ethical reasons--can be grown in ways other than the way you describe, Joe, and you know that. And as has been discussed countless times, there is a difference between intentional killing for unnecessary pleasure and taste and accidental killing.

And putting all the animals people want to eat and exploit onto pasture--that wouldn't be an environmental travesty or impact "countless" additional animals as well? There simply isn't the space for it. And this too requires taking habitat away from other animals.

The problem is not just the factory food system. The problem is the human viewpoint that all animals, all land, all plants are here for us and us alone, to do with whatever we want. The problem is not just that "profits are all that matter," but that we act as if selfish human desires are all that matter.

You may be correct about 'most' local producers.  I can not speak for them.  I only 'know' about the producers we use.  They 'must' not needlessly kill for profit.  They purchase chicks from time to time, but most are hatched within our community.  

My main point was that, unfortunately, we must examine our food sources.  Just avoiding meat and eggs does not solve 'our' problems.  If one goes to Walmart and purchases vegetables chances are they were grown in a most unfriendly manner without regard to anything beyond profits.  Profits can be viewed as a catchall term for human greed.  Profit need not be money.

People do need to eat more grains and vegetables, but what we need is education more than anything.  My point on buying from a local source be it a farm, farm market, a co-op or whatever gives you the chance to go and see for yourself what is happening.  If you can not do that then you can perhaps meet the person(s) responsible for getting the food to market to see if you trust their judgement.  At least one will have the opportunity to perform some due diligence before spending (investing) in food.

I agree that the problem is most people in this country view all resources as a right and not a privilege and responsibility.  When I go to the factory food store and make my purchases without regard to the history of the food then I am as guilty as those who killed, maimed, poisoned, etc.

We raise almost 75% of what we eat and purchase the rest locally and with great care to be certain our impact is minimal.  I just made a career change to help others minimize their footprint.

Hi, Sarah. I hear what you're saying. But where did those hens *originally* come from, and why?

My point is this: for as long as we're looking at and treating hens as egg-laying machines here for our purposes, hatcheries and enormous egg farms (as well as small ones) and slaughterhouses, for when the hens stop turning a profit, are going to exist.

I am glad that you took in the hens. Yes, I wish you weren't selling their eggs and perpetuating the idea that this is what hens are for, that their purpose for existing is to supply us with eggs, but I am indeed glad that you are giving them a good life--and I hope you plan to let them live full lives and not slaughter them, as most people do, when they stop producing enough eggs.

But there aren't enough "rescue hens" to supply people's demand for eggs, and that they are "rescue hens" doesn't change the cruelties and injustices of how they got to giant warehouses or backyards in the first place. When even "rescued" hens are used for their eggs, that just perpetuates the cycle. There will be hens in need of rescuing, and millions upon millions of hens heading to the slaughterhouse along with hundreds of millions of chicks heading to the grinder, for as long as we continue looking at them as here to supply us with eggs.

Chicken or the egg. Got it.

(I'm sorry about all the following lengthy explanation, and I know it's probably 'off topic'. But, in my defense, I think it's worthwhile to tie all these issues together and we've brought up some useful analogies here, so, here we go.)

As I've said before, support of any rescue project (dogs, farmed animals, etc.) perpetuates the idea of 'purposed use' animals. I agree. I do not find the ethical paradox this presents to be particularly untenable, because compassion dictates that the already existing animal ought to be respected, and as such, rescue projects have that idea at their core.

So, here's a hypothetical worth considering, if we choose a purely vegan world and accept that no animal may used by another in any manner:

An additional thing we'd have to accept, given an end to commercial egg and meat production, would of course be the extinction of a great many species of animal. Any and all domestic breeds would, likely, be unable survive.

Benefits to plant agriculture from natural, farmed animal manure would no longer be available, certainly not in its current quantities. If we want organic options that are capable of feeding the world, we need fertile, non-man-made-chemical-enriched land. Organic products are dependent upon farmed-animals too.

We know organic could support our world, but is a vegan world actually capable of sustaining the current human and non-human animal population any better than a omnivorous one, given that the practices currently employed are modified to work with the natural ecological processes that inspired our species to settle in the first domestic communities?

Call it greed, profit, or simple evolution. Every species plays a role in sustaining life-as-we-know-it. What, then, in our current situation, satisfies ethical considerations and long term practical considerations? If we want to be absolutely ethical in our treatment of other species and do away with animal use in all senses, we will destroy our planet and ourselves at a horrifying pace.

Responsible management of all current resources, animal and plant. We can avoid most cruelty to other beings with a conscious eye to their welfare, and yes, that makes supporting rescue projects ethical, even given a perpetuated understanding of 'use'. This argument returns us to the importance of small farms that participate in self-sustaining animal and plant agriculture in combination.

To answer about our animals, those that are not (unfortunately) eaten by a fox or hawk do eventually die naturally, often sitting on a nesting box.

Hi again, Sarah. I don't have time to get too deep into this today (or this week, even), but I will note again that we completely disagree with regard to this--"support of any rescue project (dogs, farmed animals, etc.) perpetuates the idea of 'purposed use' animals"--and I sincerely don't understand how you come to that conclusion. The type of "rescuing" you are describing and participating in, wherein you're continuing to use the hens for their eggs, fits this mold. But other types of rescuing, wherein the humans do *not* try to get anything back from the animals, are not the same thing. Running a farmed animal sanctuary (or adopting a dog from a shelter), in order to save those animals' lives and for no other purposes except to (1) save those animals' lives, (2) allow them lives as natural and full as possible, and (3) educate people on who those animals are and on how they are *not* "purposed use," as you say, animals: those are completely different from what you're describing, and I see no evidence that these efforts perpetuate the idea that these animals are here for our purposes.

And though I truly don't have time to get into all the other points you are bringing up, I will note that domesticated chickens, for example, have indeed proven able to go feral, rewild themselves, survive, and thrive.

Having an animal as a companion, and having animal as a means to your food (eggs) are 2 different things! No matter that the hen/s are being kept healthy and well cared for, they are still being used for human gain! Monetary or otherwise. Why can't people just have hens as companions? They're great, and have their own personalities, as does 'every' animal that has his/her own right to live free as you do.

I agree with you Faith! If only every human being would see that all animals do have their own unique personality, and they do have feelings and emotions. Who are we to say how they should be used in this life?! They ought to be free. But it's so hard to change a world of people that are filled with pure ignorance! Oh well, I am frusurated again!  :-/

I agree with you Faith! If only every human being would see that all animals do have their own unique personality, and they do have feelings and emotions. Who are we to say how they should be used in this life?! They ought to be free. But it's so hard to change a world of people that are filled with pure ignorance! Oh well, I am frusurated again!  :-/

Thank You Kathy ;)

Faith, so what do you do with the eggs your hens lay when they are your companions?  A well fed, happy hen is going to lay 6-7 eggs a week... so rather than eat those you let them go to waste, throw them on a compost pile?  If you have a rooster along with those hens, then you'd be hatching hundreds of new chicks each year... what do you do with those?  I have hens, who I got from a neighbour who has backyard chickens as well... and yes, I'm sure somewhere thourgh the years they originally came from a hatchery, but does that mean they are any less entitled to live happily now?

I provide my hens with 2 acres of land to run around on (there are 6 of them), a warm hen house, fluffy nesting boxes, safety from predators (to the best of my ability), balanced nutrition, fresh water, and love and interaction each day...they provide me with eggs.  I don't kill the males until they are large enough to eat.

I also grow most of my own veggies, fruit, and meat... I enjoy meat, and have no intention of stopping that, but I do not intend to ever support factory farming or mass production farms... all the meat I eat was raised in my backyard.  Bred by local hobby farmers if they weren't bred on my farm.  Extras are sold to other family/hobby farms.

Firstly Heather, I never said 'I' have hens, and of course I do realise that if you also have a rooster, nature says there will be chicks! So unless people want hundreds of chicks a year, I would suggest they don't have a rooster! I am glad you provide your hens and cows etc, with a wonderful life, good for you, but maybe that makes you feel better for when the time comes for you to slaughter the chickens etc for your dinner plate!? One good, does not make up for the, one bad, maybe your self consciousness gives you that false sense of security. You help to bring these lives into the world by having a rooster, and then you take it away for your own personal gain, do you ethically have that right? I don't think so. I used to eat meat,(well over a year now that I haven't) that is how most of us are bought up, but I have made a compassionate and ethical decision not to any more after what I have seen, and because I do love 'all' animals. I used to love the taste of meat, and if it wasn't animal, I would still eat it. The animals do not have a voice, so we are here to give them that voice. Do you call yourself an animal lover? I bet you do, but a true animal lover will not eat them, wear them, use them, gamble on them or exploit them for their own gain, financially or other wise, they have a right to the life that they are born with.

As far as what do you do with the eggs that the hens lay, my parents had a chicken, and I did have 2 about 8 years ago, we ate the eggs, but the hens died from natural causes, and I personally will not have any more hens now. If you want to eat the eggs that your hens lay, I can't stop you, at least your hens are literally free range, but to have a rooster so you are supplied with chickens to eat, thats where I don't agree. But I am glad we do agree on the factory farming etc...

You're real funny aren't you!? How about you go and grow up!

Paul what the hell are you talking about I have never read anything in the Bible that says the human race is vegan and I don't even remember reading anything that states that eating meat is the cause for cancer. You have as much a chance as I do for getting it. Unless you have lived in a bubble all your life you are exposed to cancer causing agents everyday. I hope that you never get cancer and live a long and happy life but if you do it will not be because you are vegan. I'll pray for you and I hope that you can come to terms with the meat eating population we can be very good allies. I don't know of an organization led by us meat eaters that protest vegans we are omnivours, (the human population) most of us eat meat and vegetables there are a few that have CHOSEN to change there eating habits for what ever reason you CHOSE to make a change I respect you for that but on the same note it does not make me a bad person for my eating meat.

not terrible just the facts of life somewhere in your life you enjoyed a dippy egg breakfast with bacon and I'll bet deep down inside you would like it now so get off your high horse and grow up people eat meat get over it I don't bitch at you for grinding up a carrot.

It really strange, Rebecca, I think its a matter ignorance, or at least I hope it is.   If it's not, then I guess the world is simply filled with people like the commentor above me.

Because we live in a world full of ignorant, heartless and unfeeling humans. And until THAT changes, I fear this kind of cruelty will continue to go on and on......Makes me kinda ashamed to be a human, you know?   :-(

Kathy and Adam I will not post another comment on this subject after this I will on the other hand read what you have to say.  I feel that we need to have change in the way animals are raised, cared for and ultamatly butchard for there meat I am not a heartless or ignorant person because I eat meat I have a family and have raised them to be God fearing and good people. It is written in the Bible we are to take from the earth what we need and not one place in the Bible does it say that mankind is vegan it does teach us that all things were put on the earth for the support of the human race.  I hate the way we have become as a socity that it is ok to pass judgement on others because they don't do as we do or feel that what they do is wrong.  I'll leave that up to God, in the end if my perception of the Bible is wrong than I'll suffer for that and so will you if you are wrong. If you truly want to end the wrongfull practices in this industry attacking me is not the way to go about it. I am a foreman for a masonry contractor I live in the city I don't kill animals I do hunt but not for sport but for the presevation of life not only mine and my family but so that the overpopulation of any one species does not have a negitive effect on the enviroment. I wanted to help in changing the laws that allow this to happen but I cannot stand side by side with anyone that is as judgemental as you and the rest of the people that constantly judge and bicker on the net you can't change what people do but you can learn to coexist and to fight with them for the greater good and I remember this started out as a talk about how chickens were mistreated not that I eat meat but it has come to a bashing of the population that does and how heartless we are. Your coments are welcome and I can't wait to read them I know I was a little brutel in my last post and I do appologize for my comments I just don't like being told I'm the reason for the way things are, the problems are much biger than me or for that matter YOU. 

Crap, didn't meant to post this as a different thread, this was in response to john.

I understand and sympthaize with your frustration, and I too consider myself a devout Christian.  However, just because it doesn't explicitly say not to become vegan in the Bible, does that mean we shouldn't?  It also says nothing on slavery, nothing on racial tolerance, nothing on many of the divisive issues that have always and will continue to plague our societies.  You interpret the bible one way, but I interpret Christ's general message of compassion towards animals as well.  I have not, nor will I ever be judgmental of you, or of anyone, I was merely stating that there is a great deal of ignorance in our society towards our industrial farm practices.   The more we can spread the truth about such things, the more we can hope for a better future for our animal brethren.

I am not telling you how to live your life, I am only telling you the effects of such a life.   You are welcome to not listen.

I guess I'm going to reply even after I said I wouldent Adam I love your devotion to what you beleive in and I also am not telling you how to live your life.  I on the other hand want to end this conversation with you I'm not going to get in a battel with you over this Bible issue of corse it doesent say anything about becoming or not becoming Vegan not the point the point is we are all alowed to make our own life choices and to interperate the Bible in our own way I EAT MEAT AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO I do not want to fight with you or anyone about it. I want to end the terrible work practices in these factory farms we need to stand together on this I eat vegies to and don't have a problem doing so if we were to meet and protest this atrosity together.  I am open to any sugestions on that subject you tell me where and when and I'll be there side by side with you not in front of you we do have a comen goal.

I know that there are some inteligent people out there in the world why can't you understand working together is the way to go on this you are not going to change my mind or eating habits just to make your point. Rebecca you are a better person than me I'm going to hell when I die for eating meat and you will live out eternity in the kingdom of Heaven with God because you don't I give up you people are a lost cause thats why this will continue to happen you attack the wrong people I am not the bad guy here.  According to you everyone that has ever eaten meat is wrong or a contributer to the carnage.  I bought a ford truck last year does that make me a contributer to the death of all the deer that are hit and killed every year. I think you need to stop and look around at your own life before you judge me for eating meat. How do you get to work(fossil fuels), where did the clothes come from you wear(child labor china), what about the vegies in your fridge did you grow them or did you buy them from the store(pestisides) did I make my point the problem is much bigger than you and me. Oh and by the way I ment, come on, people eat meat I wasent saying that everyone should I was sayiny that MOST do. Also my family owns a packing house I buy all our meat from there.

When did I say anything different?  I agree, but where did anything come from where I said people should just 'get over it and eat meat'?    I haven't an egg in years by the way, I just don't understand where that response came from....

Adam thiis is John P she was directing that toward me she is obviously misunderstanding our conversation I know that you don't eat meat and I respect you for your decision. Have you come up with any sugjestions on how we can fight this together?

you need to appologize to Adam he is vegan I on the other hand am not. I want to help change the laws that allow this kind of needless suffering that is going on in the factory farms accross the country. I respect your choice for becoming vegan and don't want you to hate me for not. I think that there are more of us than you and we need to stand together to get this changed. Look at it like this if we are appaled at the conditions as a meat eating society don't you think that it will carry more weight than if only by vegans. I think it just makes more sense to combine forces than to fight alone( the enemy of my enemy is my friend) if nothing else use us to get change, you can hate us tomorow.

haha, oh no, that's quite alright. I just didn't understand where that came from.

okay good. gosh i feel like such a jerk now. so that other guy said that you've been a vegan for years? isn't that like really really hard? i mean i'm a vegan too but i've only been one for 8 months now; but years, now that's what i call dedication! (:

Jodi:   I completely agree with you I myself would have a very hard time being a part of a company that does this. On the other hand I would work if I had no other choice to suport my family I feel that my children are way more inportant, and to let them suffer would be more devistating to me than what goes on. I could never justify what they do so don't take it the wrong way but as parents we are required to do what is nessisary to provide for our children. I do on the other hand believe that some of these people chose to do this and those are the ones we need to pray for. I know that there is somethig that could be done with all of the baby roosters that are born we as a society need to figure out what that is and then we need to voice our opinoins to our elected represenitives. If you have any sugjestions that are doable than we need to get them on the table and make them happen. 

Very nicely said Sylvia, I totally agree 100%, it's such a shame that society just doesn't care, nor do they listen! Humans are in such a hurry with life, changing they way they eat, dress and entertain themselves seems all too hard for them, sadly the animals suffer for their vanity, entertainment and their stomachs! I pray one day it will change, but I don't think it will be in our lifetime.