They Kill Each Other, So Why Shouldn't We Kill Them?
Published January 06, 2009 @ 05:57AM PT
In conversations about animal rights and about the moral issues with killing and eating animals, people sometimes put forth the argument that we are justified in killing nonhuman animals, whether via hunting or via slaughterhouse, because other animal species kill and eat other animals too. It's an argument that's been suggested on this blog before. As long as wild nonhuman animals keep killing and eating each other, we should be able to keep killing and eating wild and domesticated animals too--what we're doing is no different, right? Wrong. Take it away, Tom Regan:
Sometimes critics object to animal rights because of how animals treat other animals . . . . For example, critics point out that lions eat gazelles . . . then ask how it can be wrong if we eat steak. The most obvious difference in the two cases is that lions have to eat other animals in order to survive. We do not. So what a lion must do does not logically translate into what we may do.
In addition, it is worth noting how much this objection diverges from our normal practice. Most people who raise this challenge drive cars, wear clothes, use computers, and write checks. Other animals do not do any of these things. Should we therefore stop living as we live, stop doing what we do, and start imitating animals? Are the people who raise this objection prepared to go feral? I know of no critic of animal rights who advocates anything remotely like this. Why, then, place what carnivorous animals eat in a unique category as being the one and only thing they do that we should imitate? Without exception, when I have asked this question, no credible answer has been given. (Empty Cages, 2004, p. 67)
Gary Francione has a little something to say about this too (emphasis mine):
Question: But nonhuman animals eat other nonhumans in the wild, so isn’t it okay for us to eat them?
Answer: No. First of all, although some animals eat each other in the wild, many do not. Many animals are vegans. Moreover, there is far more cooperation in nature than our imagined “cruelty of nature” would have us believe.
Second, whether animals eat other animals is beside the point. How is it relevant whether animals eat other animals? Some animals are carnivorous and cannot exist without eating meat. We do not fall into that category; we can get along fine without eating meat, and more and more people are taking the position that our health and environment would both benefit from a shift away from a diet of animal products.
Third, animals do all sorts of things that humans do not regard as morally appropriate. For example, dogs copulate and defecate in the street. Does that mean that we should follow their example?
Fourth, it is interesting that when it is convenient for us to do so, we attempt to justify our exploitation of animals by resting on our supposed “superiority.” And when our supposed “superiority” gets in the way of what we want to do, we suddenly portray ourselves as nothing more than another species of wild animal, as entitled as foxes to eat chickens.
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Comments (76)
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Author
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Stephanie is an independent animal rights advocate, a vegan, a tree-hugging environmentalist, and a freelance editor and writer. She lives in St. Louis with an aging corgi-lab and an adolescent rescued pit bull.
Tom Regan says, "what a lion must do does not logically translate into what we may do." This is correct.
However, he gets off-course when saying, "Why, then, place what carnivorous animals eat in a unique category as being the one and only thing they do that we should imitate?"
The question is not whether we should imitate animals, but whether it is wrong to eat meat (considering animals do it).
To claim that eating meat is not wrong (because animals do it), does NOT imply that the speaker feels that all animal behavior should be emulated (by abandoning their cars, clothes and computers).
Posted by Michael Kane on 01/06/2009 @ 06:23AM PT
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What animals are vegan? Many eat insects, other animals, etc including chickens, pigs etc. Rabbits don't need meat but do cannibalize offspring on occasion and some will eat bacon at that time also. Even songbirds that eat insects can't be called vegan.
Posted by Jan Hoadley on 01/06/2009 @ 07:02AM PT
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The day a human can chase down on foot, jump on, then severe the windpipe and drag down a zebra bare handed, is the day I will say with humility that we humans should kill like animals do. Simply put, we can't. Not only are we entirely too slow to catch anything but grubs and bugs, we don't have the nails to grab the skin, the strength to knock down, the nails to puncture, the mouth to open wide enough to do damage and the teeth to tear out a trachea. And well, most of us don't have the appetite to eat it raw.
Carnivores must kill or they die. It isn't a conscious decision made by a lioness in the morning to go torture an impala for amusement. The choice is that if she doesn't kill the impala, she will die. When a human kills an animal for food it is for appetite not necessity, if a human hunts and kills an animal it for amusement and if he kicks his dog to death it is cowardice and cruelty.
Posted by Janet Riddle on 01/06/2009 @ 07:15AM PT
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I dont Agree with the Headline at all. We shouldn't kill them because It is their human right to live,they were givin life just as we were. People have become so greedy to live to survive. As oppose to animals killing one another It's not true for all animals most are vegatarians and for the one that do eat one another It's apart of their natural order for them to survive but that does not makie it right for us to kill them to eat!. You know I read the bible over and over and see how people misconstrued what It say's In the bible about meat. God left the Animals here to serve a perpose for us to help us to comfort to guide us when we need them,most of all to protect us. None of these things will work for us because instead of animals loving us they have become afraid
and angry. Don't you see when you turn on the television and you watch planet in peril,or national geographic and they show you animals and how they respond to humans angered because how we abuse them and use them for personal gain. I myself am discusted by the people who do such terrible things to animals and they are all considered terrorist,those who believe in Finning,over in Africa they kill the Elephants,the monkeys,apes an the gorrillas they will have their day to deal with god for such Haneous crimes. To the men and women that hunt and kill animals I hope your stomachs are satisfied knowing you took a life and you murdered generations of children and families.
Posted by Veronica Hudgen on 01/06/2009 @ 07:19AM PT
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Jan asked: What animals are vegan?
We're talking about natural lifestyles. Rabbits don't have access to bacon in nature. A deer is vegan by nature. That doesn't mean that a bug isn't on the grass. They lack the ability to search their blade of grass before chewing it. Just because a knat flew in my mouth last summer doesn't make me any less of a vegan. Except for tropical bird species I believe most birds eat worms and other insects. They are not vegan. That doesn't mean you can't get your bird to eat chucks of bacon. It means that he shouldn't. What we can consume and what we should consume are very different things.
Posted by Janet Riddle on 01/06/2009 @ 07:22AM PT
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Veronica:
Thanks for bringing up the bible. We were given dominion over the animals. But the word dominion in hebrew (what the old testiment was written in) means to "care for and watch over", when translated to english, our meaning of dominion was much different. Remember that he also gave us dominion of the elderly and the children and the poor of heart. And when Jesus sat on that hill he said "Blessed are the merciful, for only you shall be shown mercy." And when we get attacked soon for what we just wrote, here's another to remember, "Blessed are those who are persecuted in my name".
Posted by Janet Riddle on 01/06/2009 @ 07:31AM PT
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"What animals are vegan?"
I think Janet summed it up great. But I stilled smiled at this question because there are no animals in nature that seek out dairy cows' milk to drink. Mammal babies nurse then wean when nature tells them to, they don't wean from their moms then go off to find a dairy cow to suckle from. Humans do not need dairy - we were built like every other mammal to suckle then wean when the time was right.
Animals are built to be carnivore, omnivore or herbivore. Just because we SAY we're something doesn't make it biologically true. Carnivores (ie big cats) need to eat meat, omnivores (ie bears) can eat whatever they need to survive and herbivores (ie apes) live happily on vegetation, and anyone one of these categories can "try" any kind of food they want, the question is not do they "choose" to eat something but "can" their body digest it. Humans have the brain capacity though to decide what they want to eat. That's the beauty of being superior.
Posted by Lisa Smolen on 01/06/2009 @ 09:49AM PT
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Well I am not an expert but I know Horses do not eat meat. They eat mostly grasses (hay) and if given oats (protein) it should be done sparingly. Horses can get very ill form being fed to much oats, or clover (protein) Humans are already very ill from eating too much protein (meat)
As far as I know some of the largest animals don't eat meat. Giraffes, Hippopotamus, Elephants... plant protein is plenty good and tastes much better.
Everyone should give soy milk a try. As far as I know we are the only species that drinks the milk of another species and life long at that. Seems very unnatural.
I always hatet milk even as a child and was forced to drink it but it made me gag. I used to poor it down the drain when my mother did not look.
Posted by Ginette Callaway on 01/06/2009 @ 11:02AM PT
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Ugh, I hate when people bring up that point! I'm vegetarian, and planning on going vegan when I move away. =]
Posted by M N on 01/06/2009 @ 11:35AM PT
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Kudos to Janet for saying what I wanted to say re: our lack of natural equipment for hunting!
I'll say this instead in an effort to answer the initial question of "They Kill Each Other, So Why Shouldn't We Kill Them?":
We shouldn't kill because we don't NEED to. We WANT to. And I think some of us enjoy it a liiiiiiittle too much... kinda to the point of being pathological.
Since humans can easily subsist, survive and thrive on a diet free of animal products, killing animals becomes simply a sign of gluttony, a want and not a need.
I'm sure almost everyone reading this blog can see examples in their own lives of the trouble that results from putting wants before needs.
Posted by Keith Berger on 01/06/2009 @ 11:55AM PT
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I think janet adn Keith are right, especially Keith with "we don't NEED to kill, we WANT to kill" but that's just as wrong as if we needed to which we don't!!!! hunting adn killing is wrong, they are the same thing, some people think it's different but it's not!!!! wat r u doing when ur killing? taking a life, ending it short wat r u doing when ur hunting? taking a life, ending it short, wat's the difference in that I ask u. wat is it? The answer is that there is no difference, it's all the same, and God did tell us to watch over them adn not kill tehm, thats wrong!!!!
-Sam
Posted by Samantha price on 01/06/2009 @ 12:15PM PT
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Meat-eaters justify eating animals by emphasizing perceived differences that make animals less valuable in our estimation. Then they base their morality on animal conduct. It's either dishonest or stupid, I'm not sure which.
Posted by Paul Howard on 01/06/2009 @ 01:44PM PT
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Hi Stephanie! Love your blogsite. I think gorillas, our closest relatives, are vegan. I once had an argument about 20 years ago with my sister when she announced she was vegetarian because she wouldn't eat anything that had a face. I didn't understand what she was talking about and responded with "Well, we're omnivores, just like bears. So when you talk a bear into becoming vegetarian, then I'll become one too."
Silly me. Just didn't get it back then (I've been vegan for almost 10 years now) and a lot of people still don't get it. I think it's worth remembering that when talking to people. After all, most of us ate meat at one time or another. If we want to promote compassion, tolerance and understanding, we have to practice it ourselves.
Posted by Daniel Wilson on 01/06/2009 @ 03:26PM PT
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That's an excellent point, Daniel, and your timing is perfect--there's going to be a post later this week on just this topic.
Posted by Stephanie Ernst on 01/06/2009 @ 04:01PM PT
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Paul Howard said "Meat-eaters justify eating animals by emphasizing perceived differences that make animals less valuable in our estimation. Then they base their morality on animal conduct. It's either dishonest or stupid, I'm not sure which."
How about both? :)
Posted by Ellie Maldonado on 01/06/2009 @ 04:20PM PT
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OMG, OMG, The Fifth Element. She doesn't want to save humankind because she watched all the videos of humans killing each other.
Posted by Luella - on 01/06/2009 @ 10:45PM PT
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My main problem is not human consumption of animals, I used to eat animals and stopped not because of me thinking it was wrong but because of the way they were treated, my main problem is what we as humans do with animals. If we can say that we should have the right to eat animals because they eat each other we should also treat them as they treat each other. We have farms, raising animals for our consumption only, and most of those farms abuse those animals. Kicking, yelling, spitting, punching, putting metal objects up their anuses and vaginas, spraying water on them, beating them with whips, breaking their limbs and the list goes on and on. The Mother Animals giving birth don't even have the right to see their babies. What? Their Children are taken away and if not murdered immediately by blunt force trauma to their heads by being slammed on a concrete floor they are taken to their own farm, the Mother/Child bond is nonexistent. A Child not even having a chance of their Mother cleaning them, not even knowing Mama except for that short time in the womb, while Mama is stressed out because she is getting abused and doesn't want to loose her baby. They might not be as evolved as we are but they are much smarter then carnivores want to give them credit of being because then that would be that they are condoning the abuse and deaths of animals who have feelings and can be depressed, sad and emotionally damaged.
If we are going to justify eating animals because some of them eat each other we then need to treat animals better, not as objects for us to abuse because we hate our lives. We need to humble ourselves to a degree that we treat them the same way we would want to be treated. They deserve to die humanely and have good lives before death. They deserve to see their Children's eyes and to lay in the sun, eat grass and feel dirt on their backs and then when it is time, to die humanely. Then and only then will I say that we are not wrong for eating meat. Will I go back to eating meat? I never see it happening, even if my Miracle World were to exist, but then maybe People like me won't look at People who eat meat as complete jerks who only care about themselves.
The point of the matter is that we do not NEED meat to survive and most of us eat meat from animals who are not carnivores, so even saying that they eat each other doesn't make sense to me on so many levels.
Posted by Brandie Dennis on 01/07/2009 @ 07:51AM PT
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I think farming is inherently cruel, and there's no way to make it compassionate. Farming can't exist unless it abuses nonhuman animals.
Posted by Ellie Maldonado on 01/07/2009 @ 08:29AM PT
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Do explain, Ellie.
Posted by M N on 01/07/2009 @ 02:20PM PT
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The reason why we say this is because most animal rights activists believe that humans and animals should have the same rights. So if a lion has the right to kill and eat a gazelle then I should have the right to eat and kill another animal aswell.
You can't say that animals deserve the same rights as humans, but then say humans don't have the same rights as animals. I mean as people keep pointing out about hunting, it's still killing in the end, it doesn't matter why it died. It just matters that it's dead. This is the arguement I have gotten from a lot of people who are against hunting. They say it's still killing in the end, so it doesn't matter how or why it died.
So you can't not apply the same rule to an animal, but then turn around and say humans and animals need to be treated equaly as important as one another.
"Most people who raise this challenge drive cars, wear clothes, use computers, and write checks. Other animals do not do any of these things."
Exactly, we may both be animals but we are very very different from one another, and therfore we should have different rights.
"we can get along fine without eating meat, and more and more people are taking the position that our health and environment would both benefit from a shift away from a diet of animal products."
This is not always true. I know a lot of vegan ans vegitarians that are in VERY poor health because of their eating lifestyle. They don't count their protien and they don't make sure they are getting enough calcium, when they loose weight from being vegan or vegitarian they are really loosing muscle and not body fat. A lot of vegitarians that don't watch their fat gram intake perday actually subsitute meats with fats. So really it isn't always a benifit. Meat is very healthy for you, it has enzymes in it that aid digestion, it helps your blood pressure and you heart. And as long as you aren't eating fatty meats it's very healthy for you. But on both sides you have to watch what you eat and monitor your health. Just becaus eyou stop eating meat or dairy products doesn't mean you are healthy.
" " we attempt to justify our exploitation of animals by resting on our supposed “superiority.” And when our supposed “superiority” gets in the way of what we want to do, we suddenly portray ourselves as nothing more than another species of wild animal, as entitled as foxes to eat chickens."
You are the ones that made up that whole idea. Animal rights activists where the ones that imply animals should have the same rights as humans aswell."
If we have superiority, then we can hunt animals because it is our right being the superior species. But if we aren't superior and we are equal then we can still hunt animals.
So either way you pick it, we can still do it. You can't say we are exactly the same but then say no we can't kill because we are smarter and superior. Because then hunters will say well if we are superior we should have more rights and be able to hunt, but then you come back and say "oh no you can't do that, we are both animals and deserve equal rights"
Well which one is it?
Like I said I don't "need" to kill to eat my meat. But you don't "need" to kill to eat your vegitables do you?
Posted by Connor D. on 01/07/2009 @ 08:38PM PT
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Oh and Stephanie, I would like to add that even though we don't share the same veiws on life, I still enjoy reading your articles. It is nice to get another persons veiw on it.
Posted by Connor D. on 01/07/2009 @ 08:40PM PT
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Miranda, I think farming is inherently cruel because conscious lbeings are brought into existence to be exploited and killed. Because they have self awareness, they have personal interests. These interests are inevitably violated.
Nonhuman animals can think, feel, communicate, and experience emotions. They care about themselves as we do us -- but in order to make them into products, they must be depersonalized. Female animals must be subjected to forced pregnancies, and their offspring must be taken from them. Some babies will be killed within hours or days, like male chicks in egg production. Others are kept alive only long enough to reach "slaughter weight", within weeks or a few months.
To whatever extent other relationships could exist under such horrible conditions, these are broken too.
They are debeaked, dehorned, tail docked, castrated.
Physical and emotional harm is inherent in animal farming -- farming is inherently cruel.
There are no animal rights on farms.
Posted by Ellie Maldonado on 01/07/2009 @ 11:21PM PT
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In my view, no one is "entitled" to eat animals, neither human or nonhuman animals. Predation is brute force, not a right. Quite a number of herbivores manage to get away from carnivores. It's not a matter of superiority. It's just a struggle to survive.
As others here have said, we don't need to eat other animals to survive (or to maintain our health), as do carnivores and possibly humans in very remote societies. So I don't think we can compare ourselves to them.
Posted by Ellie Maldonado on 01/07/2009 @ 11:58PM PT
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In my view, no one is "entitled" to eat animals. Predation is brute force, not a right. Quite a number of herbivores manage to get away from carnivores. It's not a matter of who is superior. It's just a struggle to survive.
As others have said, we don't need to eat other animals to survive (or to maintain our health), as do carnivores and possibly humans in very remote societies. So I don't think we can compare ourselves to them.
Posted by Ellie Maldonado on 01/08/2009 @ 12:03AM PT
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See I have nothing against people eating meat. When it comes down to it, it's a personal choice. The fact that I don't eat meat doesn't make me any better than a person who does. However, I really don't believe that humans were meant to eat meat. Sure, we can, but I don't believe we were meant to, nor do we need to eat meat to survive.
Posted by M N on 01/08/2009 @ 03:14AM PT
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It's more than a personal choice, Miranda. I am not an individualist. I am not a collectivist. I am both. Our individual decisions affect the whole world. I like to imagine that each of us stands at the center of the universe, and all else extends from our body. I keep quoting Thich Nhat Hanh here to say, "There is no being; there is only interbeing." Even islands are connected by the water. If we refuse to see this and just stand to defend our own island, then we will destroy each other and the world more and more as our power/influence (consumption/footprint) grows.
Posted by Luella - on 01/08/2009 @ 06:55AM PT
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Conor-As many others have said, animal rights is not about humans and animals having the "same rights." We aren't asking that cows be allowed to apply for a driver's license or vote; we are only asking that humans just leave them alone and not take away their inherent right to live without human interference--eating them, using them in circuses, raping them so that we may continue to enjoy cheese, etc. It's not a difficult concept.
Posted by Brandi H. on 01/08/2009 @ 07:21AM PT
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"Meat is very healthy for you, it has enzymes in it that aid digestion, it helps your blood pressure and you heart." - Connor
OK, there's no way you actually believe that, is there? Saying that meat is good for your heart is like saying that having your foot cut off with a chainsaw is good for your leg.
"And as long as you aren't eating fatty meats it's very healthy for you." - Connor
...and the best way to avoid eating fatty meats is........ to not eat meat. Cutting out meat cuts out all that worry.
Posted by Keith Berger on 01/08/2009 @ 12:59PM PT
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Conner,
Thanks for piping in. Please give me your sources. Ensure they aren't biased, meaning, give me something not funded by the meat industries. Because according to the American Medical Journal, The Lancet, the Centers of Disease Control, National Instititute of health, National Diabetic Association, The American Cancer Instititute, American Heart Association, and many more I would be happy to name for you, Meat it not healthy for you. And don't bother saying "my physican said so" cause they are required I believe 3 hours of nutrition class in the USA. Read set..............name it.
Posted by Janet Riddle on 01/08/2009 @ 01:36PM PT
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Janet, while there are better sources for nutrients than meat, for the vast majority of people, meat is a far easier source for protein and iron (including the fact that red meats, especially, help with iron absorption). While even carefully-planned vegan diets can contain the right balance of nutrients, they require far more work than simply following the food pyramid.
In addition, they're vastly more expensive, at least in the U.S.. In Canada, I used to find red peppers for $1.49/lb; here, they're often $3.99/lb, which is nearly the price of porterhouse/ribeye on sale, and far more expensive than $1.99/lb for organic chicken breast. In calculating the cost differential, one must also consider the fact that one must eat a lot more vegetables (in weight) to have the same calorie content as meats, especially if one is carb-sensitive (most high-calorie vegetables are starchy/high carb). In addition, it takes a lot more work to prepare fresh veggies than meat; buying frozen/canned veggies reduces the effort required, but also reduces their nutritional value.
All of these factors combine to make vegetarianism/veganism beyond the financial ability of many poorer people. At the end of a full day of a low-paying job, most people don't have the time, energy, or money to come home and cook a well-balanced vegan/vegetarian meal for the family.
Lastly, do you, Janet--or others for that matter--consider eating fish to be just as reprehensible as the consumption of all these other animals? Because there is definitely a lot of research out there that backs up the fact that fish are exemplary sources of Omega-3 fatty acids as well as other components which are essential to a well-balanced diet. For the record, Janet, I am a biochemistry major and will be attending med school after graduation; so I've had more than "3 hours of nutrition."
It's been eye-opening to read the comments here. I had no idea that vegetarians/vegans' definitions of "animal rights" meant they wanted others to stop eating meat. Most of my friends/family who are vegetarians/vegans do not judge whether others eat meat. I sincerely hope that in seeking better treatment of companion animals we don't diminish our arguments by trying to convince others not to eat meat, because that just isn't going to happen. It's interesting.. In Star Trek, they had so many radical scientific inventions, as well as a very altruistic way of life (exploring simply to educate themselves); yet even in this make-believe future, with so many things that broke the laws of physics, only the Vulcans were vegetarians. The fact is, we've been omnivores and have subsisted on a diet including meat for thousands of years. While we definitely eat too much meat, as a society, we're not going to altogether stop eating it, nor should we, in my opinion.
Posted by William C on 01/08/2009 @ 05:29PM PT
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Although we may not believe in eating meat, we just simply can't force people to stop. We can educate them. We can tell them what happens in slaughterhouses, we can give them the negative benefits of eating meat, we can compare the anatomy of herbivores and carnivores to that of humans, etc, but we just can't force people to stop. When it comes down to it, it's up to the individual to make that choice. I understand our decisions affect the people around us. I've influenced quite a few of my friends to cut back on meat, and for a few to go veg*n, but that doens't mean all of my friends believe in it.
Posted by M N on 01/08/2009 @ 07:10PM PT
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I don't think it's very hard work at all to find adequate amounts of protein & iron. Flax seed is also a wonderful source of Omega-3 fatty acids - and easily added to just about everything. Fish oil is kind of gross in a banana smoothie.
Posted by Lisa Smolen on 01/08/2009 @ 07:56PM PT
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I absolutely agree with the other Lisa. :)
I think that living on a vegan/vegetarian diet SEEMS more difficult, because it is outside of the norm. It is just as easy to follow a vegan food pyramid as it is to follow the "normal" one. Just because we are all USED to eating meat, a different diet seems more difficult. I have the misfortune of living in the south, and I see so many meat-eaters who never eat vegetables. "Vegetables? Yuck. I'm a meat and taters man." Yeah, they're much healthier than me... Riiiight.
Posted by Lisa R on 01/08/2009 @ 08:05PM PT
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I absolutely agree with the other Lisa. :)
I think that living on a vegan/vegetarian diet SEEMS more difficult, because it is outside of the norm. It is just as easy to follow a vegan food pyramid as it is to follow the "normal" one. Just because we are all USED to eating meat, a different diet seems more difficult. I have the misfortune of living in the south, and I see so many meat-eaters who never eat vegetables. "Vegetables? Yuck. I'm a meat and taters man." Yeah, they're much healthier than me... Riiiight.
Posted by Lisa R on 01/08/2009 @ 08:06PM PT
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Son of a......
:-)
Posted by Lisa R on 01/08/2009 @ 08:07PM PT
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>>>>Everyone should give soy milk a try. As far as I know we are the only species that drinks the milk of another species and life long at that. Seems very unnatural.>>>>
How "natural" is soymilk? It's a man-made product, the beans are indigestible (and therefore inedible) without processing, so they are certainly not something a "natural human" would eat.
Our closest animal relatives are Chimpanzees,in fact we share a great portion of our DNA with them, we are far removed from Gorillas in the genetic family.
Chimpanzees kill and eat meat, gorillas don't. Go figure.
Humans have the best food-gathering tool of all -a brain--it allows us to create whatever size claws, fangs, and power we need.
What about all the animals displaced and killed by intensive vegetable/grain farming? A cattle pasture is a far more healthy place.
Posted by Martina Herrera on 01/08/2009 @ 08:08PM PT
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"only the Vulcans were vegetarians."
Ironic that they were also the most highly evolved of all the alien species?
Posted by Lisa Smolen on 01/08/2009 @ 08:12PM PT
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Miranda: "See I have nothing against people eating meat. When it comes down to it, it's a personal choice. The fact that I don't eat meat doesn't make me any better than a person who does."
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I don't think along the lines of who is a better person, but I agree what we eat is a personal choice. At the same time, I take animal interests seriously, and I think causing them harm, when meat is unnecessary for our health, is wrong.
If humans are being exploited or killed, we say outright that it's wrong. I see no reason why we can't say the same for nonhuman animals.
Posted by Ellie Maldonado on 01/08/2009 @ 09:08PM PT
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Monnie Smevold: "How "natural" is soymilk? It's a man-made product, the beans are indigestible (and therefore inedible) without processing, so they are certainly not something a "natural human" would eat."
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Potatoes are inedible until they're cooked (aka processsed ). How natural are mashed potatoes?
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"Our closest animal relatives are Chimpanzees,in fact we share a great portion of our DNA with them, we are far removed from Gorillas in the genetic family."
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Bonobos are small chimpanzees, and they are vegetarian. According to the Journal of the James Buchanan Brady Urological Institute, bonobos are as humans probably were, a very long ago.
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"What about all the animals displaced and killed by intensive vegetable/grain farming?"
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Vegetarians and vegans are not intending for insects and other field animals be killed. Meat-eaters are intending that animals be killed. Big difference. Most agricultural land in this country is used in connection with animal farming.
Posted by Ellie Maldonado on 01/08/2009 @ 09:54PM PT
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"How 'natural' is soymilk? It's a man-made product, the beans are indigestible (and therefore inedible) without processing, so they are certainly not something a 'natural human' would eat." - Monnie
I (and millions of other people) eat soybeans all the time. Edamame (soybeans) are on every Japanese menu I've ever looked at. They are edible, digestible and a great source fo that thing we vegans are questioned about all the time: protein!
Lisa, I sooooooooo wanted a fish oil banana smoothie... ;-)
Posted by Keith Berger on 01/08/2009 @ 10:02PM PT
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"Lisa, I sooooooooo wanted a fish oil banana smoothie... ;-)"
They're a big hit at Sunday Brunch along w/the fish oil pancakes.
Edamame is absolutely edible & delicious. And, very weird, they are in the freezer section of normal grocery stores. Just thaw & eat. Very yummy. Not sure what's inedible about soy beans??
Posted by Lisa Smolen on 01/08/2009 @ 10:40PM PT
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.........I (and millions of other people) eat soybeans all the time.
ONLY DIGESTIBLE AFTER PROCESSING--not a "natural" food
.........Potatoes are inedible until they're cooked
NOT TRUE (besides, I'm not the one who claimed soymilk was "natural") Love mashed potatoes, never claimed they were "natural" (don't care if they are or not)
.........Bonobos are small chimpanzees, and they are vegetarian
Bonobos are NOT Chimpanzees. They are, well, BONOBOs
(and Chimpanzees are not small humans)
.........When you decide to grow vegetables and grains intensively, you know full well there are animals living on that land, so please don't claim you "don't intend to harm them" by practicing your own murder. You just don't have the guts to look your pathetic victims in the eye.
Posted by Martina Herrera on 01/08/2009 @ 10:53PM PT
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The soybean is a low acid food and as such, is a good host for the breeding of harmful bacteria. The Chinese did not eat unfermented soybeans as they did other legumes such as lentils because the soybean contains large quantities of natural toxins or "antinutrients". First among them are potent enzyme inhibitors that block the action of trypsin and other enzymes needed for protein digestion. These inhibitors are large, tightly folded proteins that are not completely deactivated during ordinary cooking. They can produce serious gastric distress, reduced protein digestion and chronic deficiencies in amino acid uptake. In test animals, diets high in trypsin inhibitors cause enlargement and pathological conditions of the pancreas, including cancer.14 Soybeans also contain haemagglutinin, a clot-promoting substance that causes red blood cells to clump together. Trypsin inhibitors and haemagglutinin are growth inhibitors. Weanling rats fed soy containing these antinutrients fail to grow normally. Growth-depressant compounds are deactivated during the process of fermentation, so once the Chinese discovered how to ferment the soybean, they began to incorporate soy foods into their diets.
Posted by Martina Herrera on 01/08/2009 @ 11:05PM PT
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William C: "it takes a lot more work to prepare fresh veggies than meat"
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And a lot less cruelty.
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"In addition, they're vastly more expensive, at least in the U.S...
All of these factors combine to make vegetarianism/veganism beyond the financial ability of many poorer people."
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In my experience, plant foods are less expensive than animal products. Legumes have lots of nutrition and protein, and go a long way. We don't need to eat vast amounts of leafy veggies.
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"there is definitely a lot of research out there that backs up the fact that fish are exemplary sources of Omega-3 fatty acids as well as other components which are essential to a well-balanced diet. "
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Flax seeds, walnuts, canola oil, and other plant foods have Omega 3 too. There's no need to eat fish. From what you're saying, you don't seem to be familiar with vegan eating. It is healthy and life affirming.
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"It's been eye-opening to read the comments here. I had no idea that vegetarians/vegans' definitions of "animal rights" meant they wanted others to stop eating meat. Most of my friends/family who are vegetarians/vegans do not judge whether others eat meat."
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Vegans/vegetarians know you have a choice, and we also support the right of nonhuman animals to live on their own terms, rather than be objects of property that are exploited.
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"I sincerely hope that in seeking better treatment of companion animals we don't diminish our arguments by trying to convince others not to eat meat, because that just isn't going to happen."
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The one thing I find consistent in posts that disagree with animal rights is lack of recognition of other animals as personal beings. Humans won't stop eating meat because we say they should. If they stop, it will be because they're willing to recognize and validate the interests of other living beings besides themselves.
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"The fact is, we've been omnivores and have subsisted on a diet including meat for thousands of years."
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Yes, but that doesn't mean we should eat meat now.
Posted by Ellie Maldonado on 01/08/2009 @ 11:21PM PT
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Yes, beware the evil, deadly soybean!!! ;-)
Are there any facts available about the health benefits of eating raw, unprocessed meat?
Personally, I'd rather take my chances with the vegetation.
Somebody please remind me again why people want to fight SO hard against the choices vegans/vegetarians make to simply not be a part of animal victimization?
Posted by Keith Berger on 01/09/2009 @ 08:05AM PT
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........Potatoes are inedible until they're cooked
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NOT TRUE (besides, I'm not the one who claimed soymilk was "natural")
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You claimed soy beans are not a natural food. If you want to eat raw potatoes, that's up to you.
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"Bonobos are NOT Chimpanzees"
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Actually, bonobos and chimpanzees are both chimpanzees.
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".........When you decide to grow vegetables and grains intensively, you know full well there are animals living on that land, so please don't claim you "don't intend to harm them" by practicing your own murder. You just don't have the guts to look your pathetic victims in the eye."
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I've seen this argument numerous times, and it doesn't hold up for a number of reasons:
Many crop farmers chase animals out of the field in order not to harm them by tractors, etc. -- so where there is conscience, there is usually a way. If farmers don't want to do that, that is their decision, not mine.
Incidental deaths of crop animals are not comparable to deliberately breeding animals with intention to kill them. Your argument is like trying to justify calculated murders because thousands of people get killed in accidents.
And if farmers deliberately harm crop animals, they sure ain't doin' it for me -- they do it to maximize their profit, or in other ways to suit themselves.
Posted by Ellie Maldonado on 01/09/2009 @ 09:20AM PT
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"OK, there's no way you actually believe that, is there? Saying that meat is good for your heart is like saying that having your foot cut off with a chainsaw is good for your leg."
Again stop judging me.
You say you don't mean to make things personal but really you do it.
It's a proven fact that small amount of meat is good for your blood pressure. by the way there is such a thing as lean meats.You aren't better than me so stop acting like it.
Posted by Connor D. on 01/09/2009 @ 06:20PM PT
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William C: "it takes a lot more work to prepare fresh veggies than meat"
Prepare meat: mate 2 cows, feed calf until it reaches desired weight (years of grain & hormones, antibiotics) transport steer to feed lot for more weight gain, stun animal, slit throat, bleed steer to unconsciousness (or until the slaughter line demands the next step, whatever), cut off legs, open gut, rip off skin, cut off head, half carcass, hang carcass in dry cold storage, age carcass, transport carcass to butchers for disassembly... and of course this all has to be done within a certain amount of time so you don't actually eat rotted flesh, not to mention the fact that you have to cook it to a specified temperature so you don't get any number of food-bourne illnesses.
To Prepare Broccoli: till field, drop seeds in soil, water, sunshine, cut down broccoli, pack into boxes, transport to store, buy, bring home, wash, chop, cook (or don't), eat.
But, no, you're right, preparing vegetables is A LOT of work, I spend at least 75% of my day worrying about how I'm going to eat my raw foods especially.
"It's a proven fact that small amount of meat is good for your blood pressure."
No, you're right, it is good for your blood pressure:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/dailydose/11/19/DD.red.meat.metabolic.syndrome/
And cancer:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4088824.stm
And arthritis:
http://www.sparkpeople.com/resource/nutrition_articles.asp?id=782
And heart disease & diabetes:
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSN2253659420080123
(and this was with just a simple google search... nothing secret here)
Posted by Lisa Smolen on 01/09/2009 @ 06:55PM PT
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Soybeans are harmful unless processed--therefore not a natural food
Posted by Martina Herrera on 01/09/2009 @ 07:07PM PT
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"Soybeans are harmful unless processed--therefore not a natural food"
I don't know if you keep reiterating that to flame us or if you just really don't get it.
If being a "natural food" means that you cannot eat something that has not been processed in some way, then eggs , by your definition are not natural. ( salmonella)
Meat is not "natural" ( e coli and trichinosis)
Grains are not "natural" either,since you can't eat a stalk of grain.
Why does the vegan way threaten you so?
Posted by Melissa Buchanan on 01/09/2009 @ 09:18PM PT
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I had edamame tonight for dinner. It's literally soy beans still in the pod. They're quite edible though they are not processed - very similar to snow or sugar snap peas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edamame
I don't know why people are so afraid of soy beans, or why they try to make vegans afraid of them?
Posted by Lisa Smolen on 01/09/2009 @ 09:46PM PT
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Maybe people are afraid of soybeans because of ignorance- maybe they just don't know the facts??
That's all I can think. I can tell you I feel SO much better drinking soymilk than regular milk. Those hormones they use really made me feel sluggish, bloated, nauseated, etc.
I've also thought that perhaps people try to scare others because they don't have enough information.
Unfortunately, sometimes some people ( please don't take offense, I'm not referring to anyone in particular) use the anonymity of the internet to demean other peoples' way of life.
Posted by Melissa Buchanan on 01/10/2009 @ 12:05AM PT
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I only take issue with the amount of soy consumed. I was at a vegan monastery where it was in everything: soy cream, soy cheese, soy butter, tofu, soy milk. I was like, can't they at least use hemp milk or something for a change? I kind of understand why they were using so much soy after looking at their cookbook. I wrote down some recipes, but when I looked back over them I realized almost all of them had soy.
Pretty soon, I'm going to develop an allergy to soy for eating it so much, and that will just be a disaster!
Posted by Luella - on 01/10/2009 @ 06:00AM PT
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"I only take issue with the amount of soy consumed."
That's funny, I became vegan because I only take issue with the amount of animal consumed.
Posted by Lisa Smolen on 01/10/2009 @ 06:52AM PT
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I take issue with that, too. You can't take issue with only one thing in the world unless you want to live in a one-dimensional world.
Posted by Luella - on 01/10/2009 @ 07:10AM PT
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I know. I just twisted your words around to make a point.
Posted by Lisa Smolen on 01/10/2009 @ 07:16AM PT
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Okay. As long as you know you were twisting my words around. lol
Posted by Luella - on 01/10/2009 @ 07:57AM PT
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Yes yes!!
And you can probably substitute any kind of non-dairy ingredients for the soy. I LOVE Almond milk...
Posted by Lisa Smolen on 01/10/2009 @ 08:11AM PT
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I do when I can. I'm just saying that soy is by far the most popular and so hard to avoid. I love almond milk, too.
Posted by Luella - on 01/10/2009 @ 08:27AM PT
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When I was a kid, my uncles dog (which I consitered my dog) was attacked by a coyote that lived on my parents 10 acher property. We knew this coyote was living in the area for a couple years, he had special characteristics so we knew he was the same coyote, but he kept a good ditance from our dog. We took him (Sparky) to the vet and he got a couple stitches in his leg from the first attack.
About a week later I came home from school with my cousin and I saw my dad and my uncle out in the year behind the house, I was going to walk up to them but my dad made me go back in the house (I was about 8). Sparky was pretty much mauled to death. His organs were hanging outside his body and he was torn up and he bled to death.
You can say preditors "need" to kill for food but they do kill for other reasons.
You are talking about two Kanines here. Sparky never would have hurt a single soul on this earth. He loved all other animals and people. He never would hurt anything.
This coyote just felt that he was invating his territory so he wanted to take charge and have dominance and power so he perposefully attacked my dog and wanted to put him in pain just for the hell of it. I know how mean preditors can get.
You wanna talk about seeing an animal suffer to death, being eaten by another animal is probably the worst thing that could ever happen to an animal.
Animals kill for the thrill and fun of things too. Only I don't rip and maul an animal to shreds and make it suffer to death. so really hunters are about a million times more humane than any other preditor
Animals can do horrible things too. They don't just kill because they "need" to for food. Did the coyote "need" to kill my dog. NO! Because my dog wasn't eaten and he wasn't killed with the intent to be eaten.
I'm happy to say that, that particular coyote isn't around anymore. an eye for an eye.
When hunting stops, the number of preditors goes up, and the numer of house hold pets goes down. I'm sure no one else wants their loving pets to get ripped to shreds because the preditor problem isn't being taken care of. I'm sure once you see you dog mauled to death, you would be happy if someone killed what ever killed a member of your family
Lions for example as well as pretty much all preditors actually severly wound an animal and then eat it alive very slowly so that the meat will stay fresh for a day or two untill the animal finnaly dies.
animals are much worse than people.
I'm sure if you could give any animals their own choice they would rather be shot by a hunter.
Posted by Connor D. on 01/10/2009 @ 09:35PM PT
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Connor, are you gay by any chance? Because I certainly wouldn't want to be shot by someone who hates gay people just because I also wouldn't want to be mauled by a wild animal, nor would I want to be shot to death just because war is worse than an individual hate crime. Furthermore, animal prey do not have a choice between being shot by a hunter and being mauled by a coyote. They shouldn't have to make that choice. You're the one proposing that choice, not me. I think the animals would choose to be not shot by a hunter to being mauled by a coyote, and I also think they would rather not be shot by a hunter than be shot by a hunter. Therefore, your argument says nothing about whether or not hunting is a good thing.
Posted by Luella - on 01/11/2009 @ 12:28AM PT
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Err, actually, is says that hunting is a bad thing, if it says anything at all.
Posted by Luella - on 01/11/2009 @ 12:28AM PT
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Yes I am gay.
I love animals, I don't hate them. So it has nothing to do with being shot by someone who hates you.
and to me a human life is MUCH MUCH more important than an animals life.
I was just saying that to make a point jeeze.
We obviously don't know what animals would want to chose. I didn't mean for that to be literal.
Posted by Connor D. on 01/11/2009 @ 01:36PM PT
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Pure love is about equality, not about the ability to do whatever you want with someone. You can't say, "I love you, but my life is MUCH, MUCH more important than your life." Like Christians telling me, "I love you, my enemy, but heterosexual love is MUCH MUCH more important than homosexual love."
So now you think that it's plausible that an animal would choose to be shot over not being shot?
Posted by Luella - on 01/11/2009 @ 02:06PM PT
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To YOU.
Not to ME.
I believe that animals are not people and therefore should not be treated as such. People are sophisticated and smarter, so we should have more rights. That's the way I see things. And that is perfectly okay.
I don't love a deer the same way I would love my dog. Love doesn't have ONE deffinition. Love is an emotion to where you have very strong feelings of affection towards someone. So to each person love means something different. Also there are many different types of love. I love animals. That is not a false statment at all.
You define love differently.
Did I say that?
No.
Posted by Connor D. on 01/11/2009 @ 05:00PM PT
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Yeah, sure... just like everyone "loves" cheese and "loves" meat.
Sorry, but that's not love to me. And I was talking about the kind of love that leads to happiness for all - unconditional love. You are talking about the kind of love that picks and chooses based on your personal desires.
Posted by Luella - on 01/11/2009 @ 06:14PM PT
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Hello
Stubbled across this site and it looks a good site.
I think the problem nowadays is that people are not able to see how much animals suffer and how cruel humans can be to them.
They are just a product and most people are hear no evil see no evil speak no evil.
Take a look at some videos and do some research in to how bad some animals are being treated.
Here is a quick link to an example there are hundreds more take your pick.
http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?video=china_30&Player=wm
Posted by Baz Miller on 01/11/2009 @ 06:29PM PT
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Luella. Like I said love is defined differently between people.
I have always wanted to ask this question but I have never been able to ask it before.
What are we going to do with all of the animals we use for food if everyone in the world were to go vegan?
I mean we can't have a bunch of wild cows and chickens and pigs hanging around, and no one is going to keep them on their farms because they won't be able to afford keeping the cows.
I just don't see what we would do with all of these animals.
Posted by Connor D. on 01/13/2009 @ 01:51PM PT
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Oh god Connor just shut up!
Posted by Kathy Jackson on 11/02/2009 @ 09:32AM PT
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I don't think that it is moral or ethical to unecessarily kill a sentient being. Animals will attempt to flee from pain and danger because they do not want to die- if we do not need to eat them, why kill them?
It is true that people that abstain from meat can be unhealthy- if you eat only junk food, of course you will lack sufficient nutrition. But people who eat meat can also be unhealthy. In fact, most of america suffers from diseases that are caused by consuming animal flesh and animal products: diabetes, cancer, kidney disease, obesity, and high blood pressure. So being healthy is irrelevant because you can be healthy (or not healthy) on either diet.
Personally, I feel no guilt in 'killing' plants. They have no central nervous system and therefore do not suffer the way members of the animal kingdom suffer. On the other hand, I could not bring myself to kill an animal (hunting or fishing). If I had to pull the trigger on an animal to end its life and eat it- i would feel really really bad. It's easier for me and less taxing on my conscience to just go to the grocery and eat a veggie burger...lol Also, sometimes you don't even have to 'kill' the plant. If you eat an apple, the tree is very much alive and removing it's fruit encourages the plant to produce more. For those who are truly concerned about the massacre of plants, you may be interested to know that a meat eater is consuming all of the vegetation that the once living animal ate, so there is actually more plant killing in a meat eaters diet than in a vegetarian/vegan diet.
As a vegan athlete, I have no problem consuming adequate protein- everything I eat is full of protein. (beans, peanut butter, soymilk, nuts, fruit, grains... the entire diet is protein!) Actually, come to think of it, I've never heard of a person in America having a protein deficiency.
If animals killing animals for food is ok, is it ok for a human cannibal to kill humans for food? He doesn't 'need' to, but he 'wants' to because he likes the taste and it's ok in the animal kingdom... What about rape? If animals rape animals in the wild, does that justify humans to rape women? Which brings to mind the term "consent." Eating meat is non-consentual.
I believe that humans are equal to animals in that we feel pain. We are superior to animals in that we have the ability to choose compassion over killing.
Posted by monica ferroe on 01/13/2009 @ 02:44PM PT
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good point, connor d.
I DOUBT SERIOUSLY that the entire world will go vegan! lol- there is little possibility of that. Don't get me wrong- I think that would be awesome. I do think that gradually there will be more vegetarians and less meat eaters in the future. Farmers will switch produce and grow different crops when they find that raising farm animals is not as lucrative, resulting in less cows, pigs, and chickens on farms.
Posted by monica ferroe on 01/13/2009 @ 02:48PM PT
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Connor: "to me a human life is MUCH MUCH more important than an animals life."
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To animals, their lives are as important to them as our lives are to us. I think it's fair to say we're equal in this respect.
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"People are sophisticated and smarter, so we should have more rights."
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Do smart, sophisticated people have more rights than people who aren't smart or sophisticated?
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"What are we going to do with all of the animals we use for food if everyone in the world were to go vegan?"
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As human understanding and respect for other animals grows, meat and dairy eating will decline. Without less or no demand for these products, it won't make sense to breed billions of farm animals. This would be a gradual process, so there wouldn't be billions of farm animals with no where to go. Most could not survive in the wild. They would need to be cared for in true sanctuaries.
Posted by Ellie Maldonado on 01/20/2009 @ 08:24PM PT
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Monica Feroe: "We are superior to animals in that we have the ability to choose compassion over killing."
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How does that make us superior?
Posted by Ellie Maldonado on 01/20/2009 @ 08:28PM PT
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Excellent points, Ellie. We are animals, so it must be difficult to be superior to them. Furthermore, other animals have been shown to have compassion. I have specifically read about bonobos expressing compassion, but this also seems to be the case with many pet animals who are not nearly as intelligent as bonobos.
Posted by Luella - on 01/20/2009 @ 08:33PM PT
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Thanks, Luella. I'm sure many animals have compassion, including pet animals. Even some snakes socialize, so maybe they have compassion too.
And I agree that love means caring about others. We don't love animals if we kill them for the taste of meat.
Posted by Ellie Maldonado on 01/21/2009 @ 09:00AM PT
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Connor, I'm sorry about Sparky, and I think you're right about the coyote defending his territory -- but not that the coyote wanted to cause Sparky pain. When animals are attacked by natural predators, they have what's known as an "immobility response". Since it's a natural response, Sparky would have been protected from pain. If Sparky were my dog, I would find some comfort in that.
This link is about healing from trauma, but it describes the response:
http://www.traumahealing.com/art_Chapter1.html
I think nonhuman aggression is a whole lot more controlled than ours is. We're the only species that kills for the fun of it. Some say cats do, but there are other explanations.
But we're not the only species that stores food. Natural predators may kill more animals than they can eat in one day, but so do human animals.
Also, free-living animals (including predators) can adjust their populations according to their food supply. If the supply decreases, they limit reproduction. Hunting interferes with this because more food is available for the animals who survive, which in turn this increases the numbers of their population. Then hunting becomes a vicious cycle.
Posted by Ellie Maldonado on 01/21/2009 @ 09:45AM PT
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