Very depressing.
Do you have any information on the state of eggs from Farmers Markets (in particular NYC)? Any other way we can still eat eggs without supporting this cruelty?
Any advice would be appreciated… me loves eggs…Timo.

Posted by Timo Kuhn on 11/18/2008 @ 10:15AM PST

I'm much more optimistic. I think Prop 2 is clearly a step forward, despite that fact that it's going to make a lot of people complacent. Momentum will wax and wane, but we're still making progress, albeit slowly. 
I wonder how you feel about eating eggs from pastured chickens? Truly cage free birds? What if I raised my own? In your mind, is it ever appropriate to eat eggs?

Posted by Jed Sundwall on 11/18/2008 @ 10:20AM PST

Hi, guys. I certainly appreciate and admire your desire to find ways to live (and eat) more humanely. But I'm afraid that cruelty-free eggs simply aren't a reality. Virtually all egg-laying hens, including those raised on the very rare truly free-range farms, come from hatcheries, where male chicks are suffocated or ground up alive shortly after birth--because they are of no use to the egg-laying industry, and they are not the right breed to be raised for their flesh--and where the days-old chicks are debeaked, an excruciating practice that causes long-term problems and pain for the hens. Even the hens shown on Oprah's program, on a farm that represented the best of the best, had been debeaked. Please see this post for more on this topic: http://animalrights.change.org/blog/view/untruths_and_omissions_on_oprah

Also see http://humanemyth.org/cagefree.htm

(Jed, see my next comment for answers to your final questions.)

Posted by Stephanie Ernst on 11/18/2008 @ 10:33AM PST

Jed, I personally don't agree with eating eggs ever, and I honestly have come to think of eating them as a bit gross, considering what they are. :)

That said, if you told me that you rescued some hens or adopted them from a sanctuary or shelter; kept them in a natural space; fed them a natural, wholesome diet; gave them loving care and every opportunity to enjoy a completely natural life; and kept and cared for those hens for their whole natural lives, even after their egg production declined (rather than sending them to slaughter), and during all this, you also ate the eggs they laid periodically, I wouldn't judge you.

Posted by Stephanie Ernst on 11/18/2008 @ 10:47AM PST

This is so depressing for those of us that still think we can eat animal-based foods without causing undue suffering.  Stephanie, is your opposition based on the idea that any situation in which chickens must produce eggs is not ok, or that no matter what we think or legislate, these farms will always cut corners and mistreat their animals?  That is, if we get our eggs from a local farm that lets its chickens run around a yard all day long (or if we run our own farm that does this), is that still mistreatment?

Posted by Joshua Levy on 11/18/2008 @ 11:05AM PST

Hola, Josh. :) Healthy hens will produce unfertilized eggs on their own, naturally; they don't have to be forced to produce eggs (though the industry commonly and regularly does cruelly force them into producing far more than they naturally do or should).

But yes, cruelty will continue regardless of what we legislate. One enormous issue, in addition to all the daily cruelty not disallowed by laws such as Prop 2, that keeps getting ignored in the Prop 2 craze is transport and slaughter, which are unimaginably cruel for chickens and which will not be affected at all by implementation of Prop 2. Furthermore, chickens ultimately are still considered property under the law, with no inherent rights, and the loopholes are large and many.

As for the local farm question, there is, first, the nearly universal inherent cruelty of what happens at the hatcheries, which I mentioned in a previous comment--the killing of all male chicks as well as the practice of debeaking. But also, once the egg production of those hens declines, they too will be sent to the same horrifying slaughter and premature death as the hens from other facilities.

Posted by Stephanie Ernst on 11/18/2008 @ 11:08AM PST

OMG.  I grew up in Ohio and my parents raised chickens.  They lived in the barn at night and came outside during the day..free-range..right..I picked eggs from under the chickens and on the weekends and after laying season my Dad would wring the chickens by the neck.  As children, we chased them until they fell over, my Dad laughed so hard, while we ran after them!  We had 2 acres of garden veggies, a grape harbor, apple, pear and cherry trees all over our modest 10 acres.  We had 4 acres of woods and used the wood for kindling.  I miss growing up like that.  I never really appreciated what my parents did for us.  The food in the commercial stores tastes nothing like the foods we grew and harvested ourselves.  What happened to Farming in America?  Why are we Importing our food?  A Chinese Diplomat said, "it is a foolish nation that doesn't produce it's own food supply".  I have a tiny little garden in my backyard and every time I pick something from it, I am reminded of my childhood.  Everything tastes so good and guess what, I did it all by myself.

Posted by leatrice brantley on 11/18/2008 @ 11:10AM PST

Thanks for your response Stephanie, I'm glad you won't judge me, but I'm more glad to start considering other cruelties, such as slaughtering chickens once they become infertile. I'm sure it bums you out to know that I (like many others) simply never think of such things.

Posted by Jed Sundwall on 11/18/2008 @ 11:14AM PST

The only way to still eat eggs and chicken meat without contributing to factory farm-type cruelties is to buy from local farmers who have small numbers of hens.  But don't forget that when you eat out, you will also be contributing to the abuse, unless you eat at specialty restaurants that source local free-range farms.  The best way to help is to stop eating meat and eggs.  That's what I did, I've been a vegan for over 5 years and it still makes me feel good about myself every day.

Posted by Jennifer Smith on 11/18/2008 @ 11:52AM PST

The harm of Prop2 from the AR point of view is it effectively dissuaded two separate groups of people who might otherwise have considered veganism… 1)  People who are fully aware of the suffering of farm animals but are unable/unwilling to stop consuming animals products.  By supporting prop 2, they feel they are contributing to the slow but sure reduction of suffering.  Psychologically, this tangible thing they’ve done (support prop 2) allows them to force aside the possibility of more drastic change (going vegan).  Their mantra becomes, We have to take baby steps.  We can’t expect to solve the problem overnight, etc. etc. 2) People like the one you quote who had no idea how laying hens are treated and are genuinely shocked by the revelation.  As you say, Stephanie, these people are unduly influenced by organizations they consider to be advocates for animals.  So the Humane Society endorsement of prop 2 ends up legitimizing the status quo.  This person was first exposed to the issue by the Oprah show, with a panel that included an egg farmer and a representative from the egg producers lobby.  The animal rights position was handled by Wayne Pacelle of the Humane Society, who described the suffering in stark enough terms but who offered a slight increase in cage space as the solution to that suffering.  One point of view was conspicuously absent from the show:  if you find the suffering of these animals appalling, you can eliminate your part in it altogether by the simple act of going vegan.  But of course this viewpoint could never be presented as a viable alternative.  Oprah’s show is paid for by sponsors, so the conversation, such as it is, will always be confined to a narrow range of opinions acceptable to these sponsors.  Veganism’s complete repudiation of agribusiness would be unacceptable to networks (who receive advertising dollars from agribusiness) and to other network sponsors who also rely on their customers’ toleration of factory farms.  Even though the show exposed their abuse of animals, it was no doubt eagerly supported by agribusiness because viewers were left with the perception that all positions had been aired and none of those positions potentially reduced the demand for meat or dairy products.

Posted by David Moss on 11/18/2008 @ 03:01PM PST