I applaud VP Elect Biden for making an iniformed decision .  By choosinig an experienced breeder, he and his family will have the benefit on knowing the back-group, health, and temperament of the dogs int he puppy's pedigree.  That simply cannot be had with a dog from a shelter, or rescue where the background is questionable.  Mr. Biden's decision to purchase this puppy, from an experienced breeder, will ensure the new dog will fit into their lives, and have a home for life!

Someone who makes a living breeding and selling living beings applauds Biden's decision--I'm shocked.

I'm thinking that if I decide to adopt a child, I'm going to pay some woman who I *know* is of the right class and pedigree to get pregnant and carry the child for me. Adopting an infant who came from just any random woman through an agency would be too risky--who knows what runs in her family? I mean, if I get a baby from a respectable woman, I can be sure the baby will have a lovable personality. But just some stranger's baby? I shudder at the thought. We all know that it wouldn't matter how I love and raise the child--if she didn't come from the right kind of people, she'd be hopeless, she wouldn't fit into my life, and I'd ultimately just have to give her away.

Stephanie,

Almost every time I come here to comment on others' ignorant (sorry) comments; I find a comment from you, saying exactly what I wanted to, only better. I friggin love it.

Stephanie, I'd like to follow your latest post with a SNAP. Nice one.

Re: this whole conversation, I love the suggestion of a bud for Puppy B. This is one of those "there's no reason not to" type things. Shelter dogs are every bit as capable of love and companionship as any bred dog, the imperative to save a life is there, and frankly, even if you're just looking at this from a "cute" perspective, have you ever freaking seen a mix like a Shepherd-Boxer or a Shepherd-Lab? Its off the wall adorable. Point being: go Shelter!

"Informed decision"? This article would suggest otherwise:

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/harrisburg_politics/Kennel_where_Biden_bought_puppy_is_cited.html

Quote:

"...would you want the Labrador for example to die out?"

What a strange argument. Thousands of unwanted Labrador's await a home in rescue shelters and "pounds," and here we have a defense of breeding for the end of continuing the species. As we are not the Labrador's living miserable existences in shelters around the nation, I understand why that sorry argument make's sense to you. We are, after all, helping them out aren't we? The millions who end up dead, homeless, or slowly psychologically crumbling in pounds may not, however, understand the true substance of our little favor to them.   

Normal 0 I agree. Unlike many I knew that Joe Biden or any Democrat for that matter, is going to go to bat for animals welfare I don't think that most politicians really have a clue or real interest onboth party sides. They care about pets to a point but they don't take a real stance and most don't live it. Look at the picture. He's wearing a leather jacket. He is and most of the politicians are from the old order where animals are subservient to humans and are considered only as side issues. I wish we'd see a main stream power politician come out for vegan lifestyle and animals right. I wish one or more came out and worked toward and animals bill of rights! I wish Nancy Pelosi would announce she won’t wear leather, forgo leather hand bags and shoes and promote veganism.
That would set a great example for other female politicans and politican's wifes. I don’t see any Senators or Representatives of both parties doing any of that.I don't see it on the Democrat Party and I don't see it in the Republican Party but I am pushing these issues whenever I can. I am the new minority ”A CONSERVative Vegan!

"...would you want the Labrador for example to die out?"

That argument is interesting and selfish.

Does a Labrador know it's a Labrador and does the Labrador wish he "The pure Bred Labrador won't die out, does the Labrador worry about that?

I can understand it to a certain point. I love and would love to own  a Pyrenees Mountain Dog. The oldest shepherds and one of the purest breeds.  I don't want them to die out. So I struggle with that. I even think preserving pure breed trades are important because dogs have helped humans in ways they only could because of their individuals skills and ability because of their bloodlines.

However I am not a owner of a herd of cheep, so I have to tame my selfish wants and realize that I don't need this dog and I don't even have to room to have such a dog.
Many people that buy dogs pure bread and certain breeds do so with the wrong motivations. My mother had to have a Weimaraner. This kind of dog is a hunting dog. Very high strung and needs lots of room and exercise. She can’t give him that.

It was the wrong choice but she loves to show pictures around of this dog she has, just as she loves to tell everyone her hand bad is a  “REAL” Gucci! While he climbs the walls

Most average pet owners that want a pet would do very well to adopt a pet from the pound. The purebred dogs won't die out but I think to promote pure bread animals is usually just because for some sort of status symbol reason or ideas of what a certain dog will add to who you are. Like a statement about who you are and how much money you have. Jow Biden only proved that he is a macho male who’s dog adds to that status of matcho maleness.

Hmm. I'm not really sure what the point of your comment/novel is, E.P. Ratledge. I'm sitting on the edge of my seat waiting for Stephanie's response, though.

I think your defensiveness ("But being an Animal Rights Activist you would not be above telling a lie, probably even have a little domestic terrorism on your resume! I am NOT shocked!") is unnecessary. You feel attacked for some reason, by Stephanie thinking you're a dog breeder. Yet, you see nothing wrong with breeding dogs. Why the hurt feelings, then?

Quote: "Animals do not have rights, that's a constitutional fact. "
Just because something is law, does not mean it is correct. That is why laws are always evolving. If the law is inherently right, that means it was RIGHT that women couldn't vote and that blacks could be owned.

Pretty ballsy implying that the writer of an animal rights web site doesn't know the difference between animal rights and animal welfare. I think she's actually written about this on this page.

I can't tell which you support- animal welfare or rights (especially since all your animal rights quotes were so intelligently put and from such wonderful supporters of AR). However, due to a couple sarcastic and rude remarks you made, I will go ahead and assume you support animal welfare. It is completely insane to think that such thing as "humane use" of animals for research, food, etc. It is NEVER humane to massively murder. Not ever. And to say that treating a cow wonderfully all his life until it's time for slaughter is HUMANE, is just as insane. How would you like it if I came over to your house and treated your dog humanely until it was time for me to (unnecessarily, but just 'cause I like the taste) kill and eat him? Yeah, not humane.

Sheesh. I'm all worked up now. I'm gonna go eat HUMANELY (as in, the animal rights advocate way).

Well, that comment doesn't make much sense now, does it? LOL, Stephanie. Feel free to remove it and this.

Well, that comment doesn't make much sense now, does it? LOL, Stephanie. Feel free to remove it and this.

FROM: http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=media_newsalert121908#4 

ASPCA Responds to New Family Puppy

When you’re in the public eye like the Biden family, even your new pet is under scrutiny. As recently reported, Vice President-Elect Joe Biden purchased a new German shepherd puppy from a kennel that had been issued five warnings and two citations by the Pennsylvanian Department of Agriculture.“At the ASPCA, we are happy the Biden family has chosen to bring a new pet into their home,” said ASPCA President & CEO Ed Sayres. “Pets provide us with unconditional love, and I’m sure the Bidens will certainly find a loyal family companion in their new puppy. But we also want to remind people who are looking for a breeder, that for the health and well-being of the dog, they do their homework to find a responsible one.”Please read the ASPCA’s criteria for responsible breeding to learn more, and check out our press release for additional details of the soon-to-be VP’s pooch purchase.

Here's more.  It sounds like the breeder puppy was a gift from his wife, and that he's going to get a second one from a pound:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/19/biden-second-puppy-coming_n_152465.html

http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2008/12/vip-puppies-for.html

Lisa, I must be missing something.
Ginette, it's nice to know you're a "CONSERVative vegan".  It makes so much sense on a lot of levels.  I hope it catches on.
In light of Biden deciding to get a second puppy from a pound, I have some vague reason to feel optimistic.  
Whether that decision was something he was planning to do anyway, or he's doing it for good PR after the flak for getting the other puppy from a breeder, it seems to me that there is a noticeable shift this time around, where animal people are being recognized at some level, if only as constituents.  They're hearing us.  I get the feeling that for the first time in history our voice may be becoming comparable to the voices of the hunters, gun owners and other special interests that politicians have always capitulated to by choice or expediency.  So I see what might be a slight shift in this yet-to-be-unveiled season of "Change" and "Hope" and "Yes We Can"....  
Did you know that there is a bipartisan Congressional Friends of Animals Caucus?  (Unfortunately, one co-chair died a year ago, and the other co-chair lost the election in his state last month.  But I'm sure it will continue on.)

I am not surprised about the behavior of Joe Biden .  He and his puppy are adorable, have the wife's permission to live in the home and everybody is so socially acceptable. What's not to love?  What is surprising, however, is that Barack Obama picked him as running mate.   I expected more but I am grateful he is not a Cheney type.  Maybe the idea of getting a play-mate, even an older, settled German Shepperd female from a Rescue or Shelter will fix this situation.  I just rescued a 1.5 yrs old pit/lab, black, already bred once dog from a gas high kill shelter. I named her Maya.  She has developed into the most obedient, best mannered dog, learns to run, a bundle of love. Also, adopted an older cat.  Same thing, best kitty cat. They are loving, feeling wonderful beings carefully created by God for us to take care of and to protect.  Let us hope Mr. Biden will reach out and elevate himself into a role model.

I can see the point to most of these comments... but life is not black and white...I commented on a purebred Lab I bought from a very caring small breeder (not backyard either) and keeping the breed going and I got all hell...no one probably even read that I now had strays and rescues. No one even mentioned what I said about the Netherlands...NO PET SHOP DOGS...period! That leaves rescue and "responsible" breeding. Here everything is for GREED...the AKC registers all these puppy mill dogs...go after them...lobby for a bill to end puppy mills as in the Netherlands. I am giving a thought to ponder..., someone mentioned "adoption"...how many people take "abused" children to adopt? People are paying a fortune for surrogates or invetro. They don't want to raise a child with problems. It is sad but true. People with children may be just as afraid to get a shelter dog...you never know their background. A friend of mine had a friend who rescued dogs and her pit bull killed her. I have now opened a can or worms...my point...don't be so judgmental....I am a vegetarian and I NEVER preach at people....some respect my opinion...some do not. I have also discouraged neighbors from breeding their dogs...they never did. We all need to work together to end cruelty not fight with each other...this is what happens in the anti-war movement. People are entitled to opinions....give yours as an echange of idea without an "attack" on people. We would get further I think if we did this. PS I just rescued my 6th dog who's family lost her home in Arkansas...what a sorry country that people can't afford housing!! PEACE to all and let's keep working toward's a just world!

You are an early bird to comment this early on a Saturday morning.  Lots is wrong with everything but it is better to light a candle than curse the dark (somebody else said that) We have legislation to protect animals in every area, we are enforcing them sometimes, getting better at it.  We are opposed to live animals in pet shops, more shops are not selling and even back-yard breeders are going out and even chained dogs have a very vocal group speaking out for them.  Nobody is down on responsible breeders, we need them to perpetuate the breed not the greed.  With all our faults we are 1000% more humane than any Asian, Arab or African country.  European countries lead the world and they are not perfect either. 
The treatment of animals reflects the status of humane development!  Some folks just aren't there yet. 
Let's support legislation in the area of Animal Rights, Wildlife and Conservation and promote responsible hunting.  We all will be the beneficiaries of a more humane world.

I have baught many of the rottweilers I have owened over the years. But I have also done rescue work taking in as many as I could from shelthers and working with a group to find them new homes. I say as long as he takes care of this dog (and I'm sure he will) be happy that this puppy got a good.

Quote:
"I say as long as he takes care of this dog (and I'm sure he will) be happy that this puppy got a good (home)."
That is precisely the point Xavier. Our perpetuation of this "industry" --  through our purchases -- necessarily means that other dogs will not find a "good home." The contradiction is inherent: The rescue work would not be necessary (or not nearly to the extent) if we did not continue to bring new animals into the world.  
The only defense of this practice is human self-interest: We desire specific breeds of dogs because of the passing pleasure gained from them. The net result, however, is not beneficial to anyone -- millions of unwanted dogs killed annually, and the finite resources that must go into this killing (and sheltering, etc.).    

I find it hard to ignore the double standard of chastising those who purchase from stores, breeders, etc. in the name of animal rights when stopping those purchases would create tons of animals with nowhere to go. It seems like a more effective solution would be to work towards legislation banning these operations while allowing the current animals for sale to be purchased rather than making them sacrifices in a boycott. Direct your anger at the source of the problem and work to stop it. It's like the war on drugs; going after the small time user isn't going to stop anything. You have to go to the source.

Peter, you are so right.  To begin with we are working on shutting down Puppy Mills, Bad Breeders, Suppliers of animals to laboratories and support Spay/Neuter programs that are affordable at the grass root level.  Let's not forget education for all this.  I have worked diligently in these areas for over 30 years and I do see progress and unfortunately set backs as well. Keep on going forward on the issues.

Peter and Ann...I agree with you both...fight for legislation and EDUCATE, EDUCATE. I also wonder what happens to dogs that are not sold in pet shops...my sister saw one near our home pack up a bunch of puppies that had been in a window for quite a while and put them into a truck. Would it be a lab or a backyard breeder? I hate pet shops...I worked in one as a kid...it was my eyeopener to animal abuse. Dogs would get sick and be put to sleep...I was horrified and came home crying many days. I admit to breaking my own rules..there were doxies sitting in a petshop window for months....one was too big for his cage..we had a severely abused doxie at home that my sister found in the street. We decided to buy them...I could not stand it and wondered where they would end up soon if no one bought them. So, there I was being a hippocrite! I would really like to see the end of puppy mills..the dogs are often sickly (these doxies all had health problems!) and have people go to licensed, responsible breeders, a shelter or a rescue site. I think petfinder is GREAT. I got a friend a dog there and got my last one there. Another problem is poverty....it causes people to do dire things for money...all the puppy mills seem to be in very poor states..not that is an excuse for neglect. Anyway, I think all you folks on this site are on the right track in fighting animal abuse...let's all work together to put an end to it. I just wrote a kids book (using one of my dogs) and it is about green energy, puppy mills and animal neglect. I thought it a good way to reach kids. PEACE to all Creatures, Vicky  

Purebred dogs should be considered historical treasures. They represent the many ways humans and dogs have worked and evolved together and I think that is a noble heritage. As a person with a zoology background, who has studied canids in the wild, I am convinced that domestication is an adaptive strategy on the part of the animals as much as something imposed on them by humans. Consider the domestic dog - it is one of the most successful mammals in the world, and in spite of the cruelties many domestic dogs endure, their puppies have a much higher survival rate than the offspring of comparable wild species. And wild canids suffer greater 'cruelties' than domestic dogs – disease, starvation, injury, harsh treatment by pack members are common in their lives.   In an ideal world, every puppy would be knowledgeably bred, lovingly raised, and carefully placed in a good home, where their new owners will be provided with the advice and assistance they need to form happy, life-long relationships with them. This will never happen if the breeders who are already doing this are legislated and harassed out of existence. Puppies who have a good start in their first weeks of life have the best chance to develop their full potential as pets or in whatever job they will do. Yet many of the posters here would like to see us limited to dogs from unknown and likely mentally and physically impoverished backgrounds, dogs that may have behavior and health problems. I think that is very sad - for dogs and for people.   The comparison has been made between adopting a shelter dog versus buying a purebred puppy from a good breeder with adopting a child versus paying a surrogate of good breeding to carry your child. Given the differences in species, I think the more valid comparison is between adopting a child and having one of your own (knowing the child's background). The point is, it's a personal decision. Both choices are valid. A person should have the right (and the option) to chose and not be harassed for making the decision that best suits them.

What I don't understand is why Joe Biden didn't simply tell you people to get lost, like any sane person would.

The sad irony to this story is that Biden, throughout the election, was lauded for representing the "average Joe, every man"...Mr. Scranton, PA.  Requiring a pure bred seems a contradiction, and rather elitist. 

I get that he has a sentimental attachment to the breed, and now returning the dog (leaving it homeless) isn't the answer. But, to reiterate what so many others have said, this breed would be available from a rescue somewhere. And, their decision matters because the Bidens are in a unique a should-be grateful position of social influence. 

You'd think with all the Obama dog-picking discussion (and public/activist outcry to pick a pound puppy), Ms. Biden would have made a more thoughtful decision. Perhaps her enthusiasm clouded her judgment _this once_. [Yes, wishful thinking.] 

Adopting a 2nd dog -- from a shelter -- is a step in the right amends department.  For my money, the better solution would be to pay of this *@!)^ breeder to never, ever breed dogs again.

You are wrong about there being "no such thing" as a responsible breeder.  The breeder of Biden's GSD puppy might not qualify, but they are out there.

To "Tyme," I don't see why you equate buying a purebred puppy with being elitist.  There are LOTS of "average Joes" out there with purebred dogs of all types (farmers, ranchers, hunters--I know, all dirty words to you).  These people love their dogs...

We have to admit, that is one cute puppy and he already looks a little like his Daddy.  Did anyone consider that this little pup has to go to a trainer etc. instead of being taught at home by Joe Biden or maybe even another family member?  Does dear ole Joe Biden understand the importance of the puppies' feelings of bonding etc?  Is it all about appearance and behavior?  He didn't leave his children to someone else to raise til they were out of diapers -- why put away this puppy with a trainer? I think I am Mr. Biden's ex-admirer.

Stephanie, I would like to hear about your vision of the perfect world as regards dogs. In that perfect world, where do our dogs come from? And what is the best path for getting from here to there?

People pretend to love dogs then they claim that it is wrong to breed them.  We won't have dogs if someone doesn't breed them and I would much rather have a dog from a proven bloodline than something that was randomly bred somewhere up the alley.

Believe me, I am soooo against BYB and puppy mills but I still believe there ARE responsible breeders out there. They are highly outnumbered millions to one by irresponsible people who want to "have their children witness the birth process" or "i want my dogs genes to exist forever".

BUT, there are those out there who do it for the love of the breed and require spaying and neutering of puppies and have homes for all of them before the bitch is even pregnant.

I think you should remain a little open-minded.

My objection is to the very notion of breeding--turning an animal into a puppy-producing machine for human profit. And to intentionally produce--and make a profit selling!--more and more puppies, because of a "love" for a certain breed, when millions of dogs and cats are being killed in shelters every year is anything but responsible or compassionate. Those who have a "love" for a breed could express that love in better ways--such as rescuing members of that breed from shelters before they're killed.

Stephanie is right and Lindsy, nobody proposed a closed mind here.  On the cotrary.
Responsible breeders are an asset to the dogs and people. Period. The emphasis is on RESPONSIBLE and we need to define what that means.  We can look to Europe for excellent descriptions and search around here.  We got off subject which is Joe Biden and his representation of being "ordinary" "conservation oriented" etc etc. all the nice things we would adore.  Then we are taken back when he acts "normal" for a politician.  We forgot, he wanted to get elected and ALL of them will tell you what their research shows that people want to hear.  It's a game for power and money for them and a circus for us to enjoy but not to believe in.  We know there is no Santa Claus and no Joe Biden we wanted to believe in.  It was nice to pretend for a while.  Thank you Joe Biden.

>>> My objection is to the very notion of breeding--turning an animal into a puppy-producing machine for human profit.>>Those who have a "love" for a breed could express that love in better ways--such as rescuing members of that breed from shelters before they're killed. <<<

First of all, for members of a particular breed to be in rescue, someone has to be breeding them. I'm involved in rescuing my breed of choice and I know it is very rare for a well-breed dog of any age to come into rescue. Well-bred means a lot more than have fancy bloodlines. It means they come from breeders who are constantly educating themselves about dogs and their chosen breed. It means the parents were screened for genetic disorders, the mom and the puppies had the best possible nutrition and veterinary care, and the puppies were raised in enriched environments where they were socialized to people and various environments. Often they have been started on house-training and manners. It means the breeders are available to teach and encourage the new owners and that if the placement doesn't work out, they will take the puppy back (at any age).

You would have these breeders, who do it for the love of dogs, stop breeding, so therefore any puppies will come from careless, ignorant, if not abusive starts in life, with no safety net except shelters and rescues.

I ask again, in your ideal world, where would our dogs come from? And how do we get from where we are now to that ideal?
 

>>> My objection is to the very notion of breeding--turning an animal into a puppy-producing machine for human profit.>>>

For some reason part of my comment was deleted in the previous post. What I wanted to say is:

The breeders I know aren't doing it for profit and they rarely make one. Raising puppies the right way is an expensive and time-consuming labor of love.

Lisa R.  the point of my post was that Stephanie made an assumption about me because I support Biden's right to buy a dog from a breeder--that I make my living from selling dogs.  I was also making an assuption about Stephanie, that she is a domestic terrorist because she is an Animal Rights supporter.  While equally ridiculous, I did supply quotes from well know A.R.'s that supported my assumption.

Also the point of my post was to point out that, even though Stephanie blogs about "Animal Welfar," she really doesn't understand that animal welfare is very different from Animal Rights.  It's a term the A.R.'s use to try and wedge themselves into mainstream culture, but the truth is, you can't really support both.

I'm not at all supprised you didn't understand the post, it's hard for a brain to function normally when deprived of protein!

Lisa, of course someone is breeding dogs for them to end up in rescue.  But before you go pitting Resuce agains Breeders, you should know that it was "Breeders," to pioneered the "Rescue" movement.  Pure bred rescue groups were by and large started by National Pure Breed Parrent Clubs made up of fanciers and breeders.  It's "Breeders" who have funded most of the pure-bred rescue that takes place in this country.  Certainly not PETA and H$U$ who save their millions for lobbying and funding legal defence for domestic terrorists.  Think how many homeless animals they could spay, feed and home their $. 

Linda, your point is well taken.  We need to accept that there is no perfect anything, world, dogs, universe, whatever.  As so many, I also believed that only a pure bred dog was worth having.  I learned otherwise when I got to know mixed puppies and Heinzs. Each animal is an individual and can be beautiful in its own way when taken care of, well trained and LOVED.  We do appreciate responsible breeders, however when the greed comes in too many principles fly by the way-side.  We have to promote spay/neuter programs because most people are not learning, have misguided ideas or need to mature a bit longer.  It is this irresponsible over-population that is at the root.  Rescues and shelters are over-burdened, money is scarce and it is a challenge right now.  How about talking about the Amish that don't allow education outside their own beliefs?  About their child abuse that nobody wants to see and their animal abuse that we ignore with their miserable puppy mills etc?  It would be more productive to raise awareness about that issue so we do not purchase anything coming from the Amish and force them into compliance with our laws.  Let's be done with Joe Biden.  He is what he is.

For the record, E P Ratledge, my assumption that you are a breeder isn't just assumption--I find it highly doubtful that there is one E P Ratledge vigorously defending breeding here and an entirely different E P Ratledge listed in various places online as a breeder. Perhaps you don't "make a living" selling dogs--that's an assumption that I shouldn't have made--but that you are at leaste involved in the practice of breeding dogs and "showing" them seems quite clear.

And when on earth did I ever say I was blogging about animal welfare? Take a good, long look at this blog. Perhaps you'll notice "Animal Rights" all over it.

And please, don't dare tell me that I don't "understand that animal welfare is very different from Animal Rights." I'm well aware of the differences. I myself point out the differences often. Animal rights is about protecting animals' interests in their own lives. Animal welfare is about protecting humans' interests in animals' lives and how those animals can benefit humans.

And a final note to E P Ratledge and anyone else inclined to continue insulting other commenters' (or my) intelligence or call them "terrorists": keep it up, and your comments will be deleted.

Dear E.P Ratledge, Happy Holidays to you, hope you can relax somehow.  We are having an exchange of opinions, not a challenge of genetics or biology.  We don't want to judge some body's opinion.  We all have one as the saying goes. 

Ann, I'm not sure what you mean when you say Stephanie is right and no one proposed a closed mind - and then you defend responsible breeders. Stephanie said (in the post that started this thread, 'so-called responsible breeders (no such thing in this world, folks--no such thing).'

I think Joe Biden is acting like a politician when he says he is getting a second dog from a shelter. Getting a German Shepherd Dog was him acting like a normal person who knows what is a good match for him.

My first dog was an all-American mutt from a shelter. He grew up to have a serious genetic (or possibly congenital) disorder. For the dogs I have now I researched different breeds for two years before I decided on the one that is a good match for me and the ones I have had fit me perfectly, though each is certainly an individual.

I have purebreds, but I don't think a purebred is 'better' than a mutt. What purebreds are, especialy a well-bred purebred, is more predictable, and that can be helpful in making sure you get a good match.

I would like to see irresponsible breeding end. Stephanie, since you say there is no such thing as a responsible breeder, does that mean you would like to see the end of all dogs? Or that you support irresponsible breeding?

I strongly support spaying as a way to control populations (according to population genetics, neutering males has very little impact on populations in a pormiscuous species). But I believe it should be voluntary. Incidentally, I want to point out that there is nothing irresponsible about having intact dogs. What is irresponsible is having careless, unplanned puppies.

No such thing as a responsible breeder?  That's just a silly idea.

Don't know exactly how to think about neutering males.  Mine were not but they had their insane moments when a bitch in heat was around.  Also, one of them developed testicular cancer.  I was told I could have prevented that by neutering.  Well, the next fellows have been neutered the girls spayed. I go by what "experts" like vets tell me.  Learned that you can't trust all of them either.  At any rate, reproduction has to be controlled. In spite of all our shortcomings, the USA is still the most humane country on the Globe and getting better every day especially now with the Bushes gone.

Ann Freed, does your definition of "control" mean eliminating the next generation of pets?

Stephanie, you got it wrong again.  I never said I wasn't a breeder, I said I didn't make a living selling dogs. 

This is what you stated.  "Someone who makes a living breeding and selling living beings applauds Biden's decision--I'm shocked" 

Again, I have never made a living selling dogs.  The vast majority of breeders do not make money selling dogs.  The IRS has ruled that dog breeding is a hobby and no longer can be used as taxable income.  The people making living off the backs of dogs are the Animal Rightists, and the multi-million dollar organizations like H$US and PETA!  Now that's exploitation!

Here's where you referred to  Animal Welfare:

Stephanie wrote:  "But Biden? Not one of those didn't-know-better types. Not by a long shot. (Indeed, it's frustrating to recall that Biden was even referred to as a "stalwart friend of animal welfare advocates" during the presidential campaign.) "

You seem to be saying he knew better than to purchase his dog from a breeder because of this.  That is what sent up a red flag that you didn't know the differences between Animal Welfare and Animal Rights.

Of course a stewart friend of anaiml welfare advocates woud buy a dog from a reputable breeder.

Quote:

"Of course a stewart friend of anaiml welfare advocates woud buy a dog from a reputable breeder."

That cannot possibly be true. The definition of "animal welfare" aims at a reduction of suffering. Therefore, as breeders necessarily increase the amount of suffering in the world -- because for every new animal purchased, another will suffer and die --, if someone is genuinely concerned with promoting a net reduction in overall suffering, they would adopt or rescue an animal currently in existence as opposed to perpetuating an industry that profits from bringing more of these animals into the world. 

Alex, it is a false assumption that for every animal purchased another one dies.  Please do some objective research and come out from under the lises spread by Animal Rights Activists. 


Animal Activist or Animal Advocate?
Animal RIGHTS or Animal WELFARE?
Do YOU know the difference?


Animal Welfare supports humane use and treatment of animals and believes that humans have a responsibility to care for animals. Animal Welfare includes humane treatment and responsible care of animals used by humans for service, research, food, education, kept in zoos or sanctuaries, and especially those animals kept by pet owners.

Animal Rights (AR) is based on moral and ethical philosophies. While Animals Rights Advocates and Groups talk about humane care, the bottom line is to work for humane care and legislation ONLY until all animals can be removed from human use. The reason for this is the Animal Rights belief that no species on this planet is better than another; therefore, humans have no right to dominate over, use, breed, or eat non-human species. www.animal-rights.com/arpage.htm

African american welfare vs. african american rights:

african american welfare supports humane use and treatment of blacks and believes that white people have a responsibility to care for blacks. African american welfare includes humane treatment and responsible care of blacks used by whites.

African american rights is based on moral and ethical philosophies. While african american rights advocates and groups talk about humane care, the bottom line is to work for humane care and legislation ONLY until all blacks can be removed from use. The reason for this is the african american rights people believe that no race of humans on this planet is better than another; therefore, white humans have no right to dominate over, use, breed, or eat black humans.

Which one makes sense? and which sounds friggin idiotic?

All U.S. citizens, regardless of race,  have rights in in this country granted to them by the Constitution.  That is not even debatable.  Animals do not have rights and that is simply a consititional fact.   Legally, animals are property, and included in that constituional right to own property all citizens enjoy.  They're ours to own, to breed, to eat, and to wear!

Do you really not see a difference in humans and animals?  Read Genesis, God gave man dominion over animals, and the founding fathers of this country agreed. 

To answer your question Lisa, "which sounds friggin idiotic?"  I believe the answer is you!

All U.S. citizens, regardless of race, have rights in in this country granted to them by the Constitution. That is not even debatable. Animals do not have rights and that is simply a consititional fact. Legally,animals are property, and included in that constituional right to own property that all citizens enjoy. They're ours to own, to breed, to eat,and to wear!
Do you really not see a difference in humans and animals? Read Genesis, God gave man dominion over animals, and the founding fathers of thiscountry agreed.

To answer your question Lisa, "which sounds friggin idiotic?" I believe the answer is you!

An ethical breeder would be one who chooses not to breed most of his/her animals, only breeding those who would improve the health and hardiness of the breed.  The integrity of certain breeds for certain purposes would be lost without some control of breeding.  For example, working dogs, whether they be drug sniffing or bomb sniffing or seeing eye dogs or livestock guardian dogs.  They all serve specific purposes and certain traits are more desireable.  Sometimes mixed breeds work well and are often hardier, but nevertheless, certain breed traits are desired, so perhaps a cross of labrador or shepherd is preferred for a certain purpose, while a cross of terrier and hound might be useful for a different purpose.  Not every skill can be trained, some are purely instinct and through careful observation & breeding any instinct can be eventually bred to be stronger or weaker.  The diversity of animal breeds is one thing that makes them wonderful, if we allowed them all to become a mixed up melting pot, we'd loose so many wonderful animals.  Unfortunately, a dog won't care about the breed of the animal it is chooing to mate with -- if we left it all up to them, there'd be no more Golden Retrievers, or Collies, or Terriers..... just medium sized mixed breed dogs.  (I have adopted 6 of them, so I do adore them..... but one of the things I love most about them is their differences). 

Good lord. I sure hope everyone from the Obama/Biden crew is way to busy to bother doing things like reading these comments because with how the discussion has deteriorated into name calling and Bible thumping and out and out flaming it's nothing short of embarassing to those of us who are really trying to promote the welfare of animals as a viable consideration on the national level of government! It reminds me of when we go into a local coutroom to try to get a sane resolution to an animal related situation and our hearts drop when we look up and see some well-meaning but extremely ill-advised folks show up all smiles and ready to rock and roll. All we can think is, "Oh please God don't let them be here to stand with out side!"  

E.P. is a Bible thumper and legal expert, voila.  Next thing we'll have discover a Queen of Sheba on line and sell bridges in London. 
Let's all pack up and be peaceful.  Remember, its better to light a candle than to curse the dark.

I don't do any thumping, but I do, as Obama said, "cling to my bible, and my guns too." 

As far as being a legal expert, I do have a degree in Business Law and have spent some time in the Legal Recovery field.  I guess you could call that expert. 

Ann is a name caller!